American Schools Are Training Kids for a World That Doesn’t Exist • Hacker News Board

Re: American Schools Are Training Kids for a World That Doesn’t Exist

#21

Post by pdkl95 » Mon, Oct 20, 2014, 12:40 PM UTC

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/27/magazine/why-do-americans-...

This is one of the better articles I have read regarding the education issues that are far too common. More importantly, it actually addresses the root problem instead of reiterating what the the results should look like. Applicability to a job is nice, but it is a goal, not a cause. Switching to new teaching standards such as New Math or Common Core is also a goal; they are selected with the hope that students will learn important, modern methods instead the techniques we used to use.

The problem is that goals don't matter if most people don't actually reach them, and we shouldn't expect people to reach any of these goals when many[1] of the teachers are just as unprepared.

The article discusses one approach to fixing this, that seems to have had some success in Japan, where teachers have a far lighter workload, and are given paid time to research methods of teaching and opportunity experimentally try them, and far more opportunities to continue their own education and learn the from other teachers. This means a few months every year, not a weekend conference once a year. There are probably a variety of ways to solve this problem, but any proposal needs to address teacher ability first[2].

[1] Note: this is about elementary level teaching, and "many" != "all".

[2] As Chevalier discusses, the availability of massive amounts of educational opportunities on the internet might be changing the entire concept of "getting an education".

Re: American Schools Are Training Kids for a World That Doesn’t Exist

#22

Post by Chevalier » Mon, Oct 20, 2014, 12:47 PM UTC

lacker wrote: post #20

Chevalier wrote: post #17

As someone with a professional degree from the Ivy League, and therefore as someone with a vested interest in maintaining the mystique and prestige of higher education: Educational institutions are parasites on American youth and we should not subsidize them. If you want an education in the modern world, it's free and RIDICULOUSLY convenient -- just log on to Coursera, Udacity, or edX and learn any subject to your he…

All your criticisms only apply because you got a "worthless humanities undergraduate degree". My computer science degree sure came in handy, and I would recommend it to anyone.

Well, I did say the following:

>We should subsidize higher education for fields with high ROI, and immediately cease subsidies and loans for all other academic pursuits. In practice, this means doctors and scientists can and should go to college for free; poets can join a book club or pay out of pocket.

But while I support subsidizing STEM degrees, including CS, this is one of the few professional fields where credentialism really isn't that necessary. You can easily take CS classes through MOOCs for free and sit for Microsoft certification or some equivalent if you'd like outside verification of your knowledge. Otherwise, it's more than possible to just enter the work force directly out of high school if you're capable of the work.

Silicon Valley should be considered a role model for nearly every other professional field. There's no reason for lawyers to need juris doctors rather than apprenticeships. Banks benefit from the sorting functions of higher education, but a great deal of the work doesn't require advanced courses. And let's not start on the inflated credentialism that's crept into teaching, nursing, policing, or virtually all middle-class professions.

Re: American Schools Are Training Kids for a World That Doesn’t Exist

#23

Post by Tloewald » Mon, Oct 20, 2014, 1:02 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #14

Tloewald wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once change became the norm (probably the 1970s) this was probably the case all over the world. Given that it's pretty difficult to change school curricula and retrain all your teachers, what does anyone expect? In any event, it's not the purpose of education to be great vocational training. The problem in the US isn't that schools are training kids for a world that doesn't exist, it's that they are training kids to…

Change became the norm around 1800 in the US. 1800-1900 saw absolutely spectacular changes in the US, in the way people work and live, at all levels of society, and that continued on unabated after 1900.

Sure but the modern school system was designed to produce workers for the industrial age. The information age accelerated change to the point where the stuff that was current while you were in college was already obsolete by the time you graduated (and since you were being trained on the previous generation of tech you were two steps behind).

Before 1970 a typesetter learned to work with the flaws in his/her typefaces. After 1980 a typesetter complained and the got fixed. After 1990 the typesetter fixed them him/her self.

Re: American Schools Are Training Kids for a World That Doesn’t Exist

#24

Post by Scribblenaut9 » Mon, Oct 20, 2014, 2:45 PM UTC

Schools are tasked with the impossible challenge of preparing thousands of unique children, each with their own unique situation and aspirations, for their adult life. There's no way such a system can tailor to all of these possibilities, therefore it basically caters the lowest common denominator. It teaches you skills that anyone—no matter how dumb you are—can learn. The least intelligent people are brought to a point where they can functionally work the lowest class jobs. Everyone else is basically disserviced. Students just need to forge their own path. You know what you want to do in life, and highschool isn't going to teach it.

Re: American Schools Are Training Kids for a World That Doesn’t Exist

#25

Post by forthefuture » Mon, Oct 20, 2014, 3:22 PM UTC

lacker wrote: post #20

Chevalier wrote: post #17

As someone with a professional degree from the Ivy League, and therefore as someone with a vested interest in maintaining the mystique and prestige of higher education: Educational institutions are parasites on American youth and we should not subsidize them. If you want an education in the modern world, it's free and RIDICULOUSLY convenient -- just log on to Coursera, Udacity, or edX and learn any subject to your he…

All your criticisms only apply because you got a "worthless humanities undergraduate degree". My computer science degree sure came in handy, and I would recommend it to anyone.

I think the point is that the information you learned isn't exclusive to degree seekers. Every book you read in class could have been read outside of class, and for most people the only difference in their ability to learn on their own is motivation. Paying to be motivated is not the same as paying for education. The cost of the education is $200 per book, anything more than that is free money for people who tell you to read the books.

Re: American Schools Are Training Kids for a World That Doesn’t Exist

#26

Post by gatlin » Mon, Oct 20, 2014, 5:52 PM UTC

whoopdedo wrote: post #15

I think there's a feedback mechanism in effect. The people who benefit the most from the way schools work become the leaders who decide how schools should work. To their perception, the education provided is perfectly adequate for preparing students. So if you don't succeed in a career after going through the school system, it must be something you did wrong.

In UTeach this was mentioned by several of my professors on the first day, as a kind of anthem we should keep in mind: that we were at that university because we succeeded in a broken system and that we should be mindful not to lean too heavily on what we were familiar with lest we simply perpetuate the system's failures to another generation.

Re: American Schools Are Training Kids for a World That Doesn’t Exist

#27

Post by robodale » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 1:27 PM UTC

Chevalier wrote: post #17

As someone with a professional degree from the Ivy League, and therefore as someone with a vested interest in maintaining the mystique and prestige of higher education: Educational institutions are parasites on American youth and we should not subsidize them. If you want an education in the modern world, it's free and RIDICULOUSLY convenient -- just log on to Coursera, Udacity, or edX and learn any subject to your he…

I have a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering and Master of Science in Information Systems...both from Midwestern "State" schools. I've never had a shortage of work/jobs/opportunities.