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Shall we fork Debian?

debianfork.org

131–140 of 284 posts

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#131

Am I the only person who prefers systemd? Maybe because it's the only init system I've managed to get my head around. Other init systems seem so complicated. A config file vs a bash script is far easier and they all seem to require forking. I only use Linux for servers so I may be unaware of a sane init system that works like systemd but isn't systemd. Until something like that appears, I'll stick to systemd.

No. It's just that the people who want to get systemd and those do not care deeply about their init system have left and only those who see it as a threat to linux still bother.

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#132
From the source:

.....

> Why don't you do that [i.e. vote against systemd] yourselves?

>

> We are excluded from voting on the issue: only few of us

> have the time and patience to interact with Debian on a

> voluntary basis.

.....

In that case, you don't have the time and patience to operate and maintain a worthwhile and ongoing Debian fork.

In that case, there is no substance to the "question" you're raising, because you wouldn't actually do what you're calling for.

In that case, you're just a handful of guys (or maybe even just one guy) who spent $10 on a domain name... to get more attention for your Slashdot/Reddit/HN post than it otherwise would have had if posted straight to Slashdot/Reddit/HN directly.

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#133
post #9
post #5

How does forking Debian solve anything? The issue is that Gnome, KDE, and other software requires systemd. You need to fix/maintain their compatibility with other init systems. Then it is easy for Debian user to switch init systems.

You listed two desktop environments, neither of which are of interest to sysadmins. Eg. I run an Openstack cluster and do not care if there are gnome or kde packages available. I don't particularly like systemd and would be happier not having to deal with the compatibility and/or conversion issues for what I perceive as minimal benefit.

I'm in a similar position with regard to those (or any) desktop features not being relevant for most of the systems I administer.

I'm kind of irritated about having to learn a whole set of new things. I do recognise that there are some benefits for my use case in systemd. The desktop stuff aren't the only things that systemd brings.

More than that though, is the fact that it's going to be the new default everywhere. So while you say

I don't particularly like systemd and would be happier not having to deal with the compatibility and/or conversion issues for what I perceive as minimal benefit.

I think you (and I) will actually face more work in trying to avoid systemd than convert to it. You'll be fighting against your distribution's default and the default of every bit of third party software targeted at your distro. From what I have seen most conversions are fairly painless.

So from my position that sits somewhere between "ambivalent" and "that's kind of nice", going with the flow seems the easier path.

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#134

From the source: ..... > Why don't you do that [i.e. vote against systemd] yourselves? > > We are excluded from voting on the issue: only few of us > have the time and patience to interact with Debian on a > voluntary basis. ..... In that case, you don't have the time and patience to operate and maintain a worthwhile and ongoing Debian fork. In that case, there is no substance to the "question" you're raising, becaus…

I came here to say exactly that. "We don't have time to work with the Debian folks on a solution, but have time to create our own distro." Right. Then again, they should go for it. If nobody but them uses it, that's that. If it gains traction, cool.

On another point: why the hell would you have a choice in init systems? As a user of the OS, I care that the proceses start, stop, and keep running. I don't care how. A purist in me might care, but I am not going to futz with installing different init systems for no good reason.

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#135

Am I the only person who prefers systemd? Maybe because it's the only init system I've managed to get my head around. Other init systems seem so complicated. A config file vs a bash script is far easier and they all seem to require forking. I only use Linux for servers so I may be unaware of a sane init system that works like systemd but isn't systemd. Until something like that appears, I'll stick to systemd.

I don't think you're wrong. I imagine all these people saying systemd is so awful are just worried that their hard-earned sysvinit knowledge will become obsolete and that new users won't have to go through silly bash scripts (that are totally secure of course - no chance of security vulnerabilities in something as ancient and wtf-free as bash). Instead they'll have something sane like this:

    [Unit]
    Description=Apache 2 HTTP Web Server
    After=network.target

    [Service]
    Type=forking
    EnvironmentFile=/etc/conf.d/apache2
    ExecStartPre=/bin/echo performing: /usr/sbin/apache2 -k start $APACHE2_OPTS
    ExecStart=/usr/sbin/apache2 -k start $APACHE2_OPTS
    ExecStop=/usr/sbin/apache2 -k graceful-stop $APACHE2_OPTS
    ExecReload=/usr/sbin/apache2 -k graceful $APACHE2_OPTS
    PIDFile=/var/run/apache2.pid
    StandardOutput=syslog
    StandardError=syslog
    Restart=always

    [Install]
    WantedBy=multi-user.target
    WantedBy=http-daemon.target
This is the sysvinit file for apache from debian.

    #!/bin/sh
    ### BEGIN INIT INFO
    # Provides:          apache2
    # Required-Start:    $local_fs $remote_fs $network $syslog $named
    # Required-Stop:     $local_fs $remote_fs $network $syslog $named
    # Default-Start:     2 3 4 5
    # Default-Stop:      0 1 6
    # X-Interactive:     true
    # Short-Description: Start/stop apache2 web server
    ### END INIT INFO

    set -e

    SCRIPTNAME="${0##*/}"
    SCRIPTNAME="${SCRIPTNAME##[KS][0-9][0-9]}"
    if [ -n "$APACHE_CONFDIR" ] ; then
        if [ "${APACHE_CONFDIR##/etc/apache2-}" != "${APACHE_CONFDIR}" ] ; then
            DIR_SUFFIX="${APACHE_CONFDIR##/etc/apache2-}"
        else
            DIR_SUFFIX=
        fi
    elif [ "${SCRIPTNAME##apache2-}" != "$SCRIPTNAME" ] ; then
        DIR_SUFFIX="-${SCRIPTNAME##apache2-}"
        APACHE_CONFDIR=/etc/apache2$DIR_SUFFIX
    else
        DIR_SUFFIX=
        APACHE_CONFDIR=/etc/apache2
    fi
    if [ -z "$APACHE_ENVVARS" ] ; then
        APACHE_ENVVARS=$APACHE_CONFDIR/envvars
    fi
    export APACHE_CONFDIR APACHE_ENVVARS

    ENV="env -i LANG=C PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin"
    if [ "$APACHE_CONFDIR" != /etc/apache2 ] ; then
        ENV="$ENV APACHE_CONFDIR=$APACHE_CONFDIR"
    fi
    if [ "$APACHE_ENVVARS" != "$APACHE_CONFDIR/envvars" ] ; then
        ENV="$ENV APACHE_ENVVARS=$APACHE_ENVVARS"
    fi


And so on...

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#136
post #72

I'm a devop, not a system administrator. I setup and administered a number of single machine web services for my customers along the years, almost all of them with Debian plus some Ubuntus recently. Database, application server, web server. Nothing fancy. I also use Ubuntu as my primary desktop (some sort of gnome fallback DE) after I removed a lot of cruft if comes with by default. From my experience what I need on…

> A fork, or an alternative init system, could be a good solution.

I consider this a good idea. Servers and desktops are two different things so why not have two different Debian versions?

This way Debian Server could be kept small and simple while the systemd developers could continue without any restrictions. If they go too far then we could use the Debian server and add our own desktops to it.

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#137

From the source: ..... > Why don't you do that [i.e. vote against systemd] yourselves? > > We are excluded from voting on the issue: only few of us > have the time and patience to interact with Debian on a > voluntary basis. ..... In that case, you don't have the time and patience to operate and maintain a worthwhile and ongoing Debian fork. In that case, there is no substance to the "question" you're raising, becaus…

I came here to say exactly that. "We don't have time to work with the Debian folks on a solution, but have time to create our own distro." Right. Then again, they should go for it. If nobody but them uses it, that's that. If it gains traction, cool. On another point: why the hell would you have a choice in init systems? As a user of the OS, I care that the proceses start, stop, and keep running. I don't care how. A p…

Nobody said you had to futz with it. Ideally packages would ship with the correct init scripts and things would work exactly as you expect them to, or as they did. Unlike with systemd.

Why the hell would you have a choice in kernels?

Why the hell would you have a choice in filesystems?

Why the hell would you have a choice in sound systems?

Why the hell would you have a choice in desktop environments?

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#138
post #72

I'm a devop, not a system administrator. I setup and administered a number of single machine web services for my customers along the years, almost all of them with Debian plus some Ubuntus recently. Database, application server, web server. Nothing fancy. I also use Ubuntu as my primary desktop (some sort of gnome fallback DE) after I removed a lot of cruft if comes with by default. From my experience what I need on…

systemd has a number of features which are of interest to server operators, especially those who use containers, which may well be many of us before long. Running systemd as pid 1 does not imply running a desktop environment. I have plenty of VPS customers running systemd as pid 1 in 512MiB RAM. Running systemd as pid 1 doesn't imply having every single binary and subsystem of systemd running. I would encourage you t…

Yep, this is true. The only thing I concluded from this page is "I am an old time Debian admin, I don't want to learn another way to configure my system that is not a bunch of shell scripts, so I am gonna bitch about this decision and create a fork".

Actually, I find it's funny how anti-systemd people nowadays claim that "systemd is a init for desktop systems" since Gnome adopt something unrelated to the _init_ part of systemd that is the systemd-logind (that actually is a substitute of ConsoleKit that was deprecated god knows how many years ago). systemd has lots of features that makes sense on servers too. You may or may not need these features on your server, but systemd (as a init system) is still a better init system than sysvinit.

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#139
I am not sure why debian needs to force replace sysvinit, can't they have systemd-debian distro that will have all the shiny stuff in it? and maybe have it grow and if it won't go down with their userbase then they can discontinue it? Everyone moving to systemd seems a bit fishy. C is very insecure for daemon coding with all other options why no use go for example? There might be some influence on behalf interested governmental parties giving a push to systemd. I don't have a problem with systemd its just I think it should have been an option not a default for server setups. C programs if they are not really carefully coded can be easily hacked by stack smashers, race condition inducers etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwcl17Q0bpk

Re: Shall we fork Debian?

#140

Am I the only person who prefers systemd? Maybe because it's the only init system I've managed to get my head around. Other init systems seem so complicated. A config file vs a bash script is far easier and they all seem to require forking. I only use Linux for servers so I may be unaware of a sane init system that works like systemd but isn't systemd. Until something like that appears, I'll stick to systemd.

I don't think you're wrong. I imagine all these people saying systemd is so awful are just worried that their hard-earned sysvinit knowledge will become obsolete and that new users won't have to go through silly bash scripts (that are totally secure of course - no chance of security vulnerabilities in something as ancient and wtf-free as bash). Instead they'll have something sane like this: [Unit] Description=Apache…

How does systemd handle situations where you need to check for the existence of directories and check their permissions, etc, before starting the service? You'd have to script it... and it would end up looking like a sysvinit script anyway.
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