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Bilingual brains: Variety makes you mentally fit

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Re: Bilingual brains: Variety makes you mentally fit

#22
post #6

My "nights and weekends" project for the past few years has been writing iOS language learning apps. The niche that I'm looking to fill is to create enough "games/drills" to help alleviate the incredible repetition needed to learn another language. Anyway, I'm looking for suggestions so I can find my niche in a really crowed market... https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/h4-spanish-lite/id388918463?... I'd really apprecia…

Good luck! Here is my own iOS language learning app (Japanese): http://itunes.apple.com/app/id492005575

It seems like it's difficult to make much money unless you are one of market leaders. Check out mindsnacks if you haven't already.

Re: Bilingual brains: Variety makes you mentally fit

#23
post #16
post #5

I wonder to what extent using several programming languages has the same effect. If the hypothesis about language switching as an inhibitory mental exercise is correct, then polyglot programming should have some of the same benefits.

I don't think it applies. Being bilingual means thinking in two different languages. I'm talking about your inner voice. As far as I know, people don't think in Python or C. I would say that a programming language is like math. You can use it as a plugin in your language, but you still need the main program which is your language.

I might not be so much about the language but about the paradigm. Certainly going from Java to C++ might not be that different but through in something like Haskell and you almost have to entirely rethink your solution.

Re: Bilingual brains: Variety makes you mentally fit

#24
post #23
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it applies. Being bilingual means thinking in two different languages. I'm talking about your inner voice. As far as I know, people don't think in Python or C. I would say that a programming language is like math. You can use it as a plugin in your language, but you still need the main program which is your language.

I might not be so much about the language but about the paradigm. Certainly going from Java to C++ might not be that different but through in something like Haskell and you almost have to entirely rethink your solution.

One thing is setting your logic to follow a certain way of thinking, and a completely different thing is the language you are using to think.

Furthermore, programming languages are written in English. A real language cannot be written in another language.

I'm not a linguist nor a programmer, but I'm trilingual, and I have scripted at a basic level. And honestly, although I see the resemblance, I don't think that programming languages and real languages work the same way.

Re: Bilingual brains: Variety makes you mentally fit

#25
post #5

I wonder to what extent using several programming languages has the same effect. If the hypothesis about language switching as an inhibitory mental exercise is correct, then polyglot programming should have some of the same benefits.

Probably not, most programming languages boil down to the same thing with different syntax.

not at all, most express different concepts. Of course there is overlap and you can get by using the same concept in different languages and ultimately they boil down to asm, but you need to think differently about the interpreter. It's the same with related natural languages.

Re: Bilingual brains: Variety makes you mentally fit

#27
post #24
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might not be so much about the language but about the paradigm. Certainly going from Java to C++ might not be that different but through in something like Haskell and you almost have to entirely rethink your solution.

One thing is setting your logic to follow a certain way of thinking, and a completely different thing is the language you are using to think. Furthermore, programming languages are written in English. A real language cannot be written in another language. I'm not a linguist nor a programmer, but I'm trilingual, and I have scripted at a basic level. And honestly, although I see the resemblance, I don't think that prog…

I'm trilingual (Spanish,French,German) and program fluently in at least 3 languages (Python, Javascript, PHP). Things in common: You build an idea in the air and shoot it in the language. Happens to me a lot in German where I don't have a vocabulary as wide as Spanish on English that the brain will have to build a sentence maybe 30% longer but it will eventually bring out something that does the job. When I'm coding I just know the program needs to do certain thing. Python is very straightforward while with PHP usually I need to build some auxiliary function (same as German , not that the word doesn't exist but I don't have it in my Head at the moment). Also, very obscure concepts like "Dativ" conjugation do exist in spanish but since it looks the same as "Genitiv" and "Akkusativ" , nobody pays to much attention. However when you are speaking German you'd better understand that as you need them to correctly build a sentence of the fly. An example analogy with coding would be generic data structures like arrays in PHP but in Python are more rich like Lists, Dictionaries and Tuples(IMHO)

Re: Bilingual brains: Variety makes you mentally fit

#28

I've been around a lot of people who were raised bilingual in English and an oriental language and most of them complained that it was too hard. They felt that at the high school and college level it's not possible to fully develop advanced vocabulary and usage in both languages. You can risk coming across as non-native or stupid in both languages. I think a lot of this stuff about bilingualism is biased toward peopl…

Perhaps it depends on the languages. I was raised in English; French was added starting at 5. Today, at 49, I am fluently and idiomatically bilingual in English, French, and various idiomatic variations on both common to the provinces in which I've lived (I can switch from stock-standard English to various idiomatic dialects and accents, as many of you can, e.g., formal English Vs the street or town English you spoke growing up, from those used here in Ontario to lilting dialects and accents of Nova Scotia; I can do the same with a few Quebec Joual dialects.)

With a couple of days in Paris, I am taken for a native. Same thing in New Orleans or Chicago (I have to be very careful about not drifting into local accents, I just sort of go there.)

So it is possible to be perfectly bilingual - but it requires early exposure to the second language and an ear (which can be developed - you have to stop listening to specifics, to particulars, and listen holistically, letting the language flow over you so that you understand the intent without understanding individual words - practice that for a while, and the words come).

I also speak passable remedial Spanish and have learned and forgotten a whole lot of Turkish, Arabic, German, and Greek.

After a while, your inner voice switches to non-linguistic (which I think might mean it returns to what it was before you had language, i.e., as a child). I used to think mostly in English, but nowadays I think in, well, viscera. I then have to find the words that most closely match the viscera. For simple things, that happens quickly. For complex things or subtle differences, it can take time, during which I sputter.

About 6 months ago I ask a friend's daughter whether this had happened to her yet (she was raised in French, added English much later, then some Spanish, and finally did intensive German prior to heading o'er the pond for her M.Eng).

Her eyes went wide and she shrieked "OUI! OUI! Exactement!" She turned to her mother: "M'man! Il comprend exactement qu'est ce qui m'arrive!"

(Yes, yes, exactly! Mom! He understands exactly what is happening to me!)

She'd been going through the same thing and didn't know it had ever happened to anyone else.

It's a truly strange thing, mind blowing - and mind expanding.

Sometimes, I can sort of disconnect from language. It frees my mind in a most powerful way. It's tricky to get there, though, and sometimes even harder to get back.

Re: Bilingual brains: Variety makes you mentally fit

#29
post #16
post #5

I wonder to what extent using several programming languages has the same effect. If the hypothesis about language switching as an inhibitory mental exercise is correct, then polyglot programming should have some of the same benefits.

I don't think it applies. Being bilingual means thinking in two different languages. I'm talking about your inner voice. As far as I know, people don't think in Python or C. I would say that a programming language is like math. You can use it as a plugin in your language, but you still need the main program which is your language.

>As far as I know, people don't think in Python or C. I would say that a programming language is like math.

Are you saying people don't think in math? They definitely do

Re: Bilingual brains: Variety makes you mentally fit

#30
I want to be careful about these sort of research. Too many times I've seen these kind of "research" is often funded by commercial entities that teach foreign languages. It's like what PG had described in his "Submarine" essay.

There is a big industry to teach foreign languages to toddlers and even new born. There is quite a bit of reputable research to back up positive effects however no one seems to be doing research on if there are any negative effects. This is like every research starts with a hypothesis like there are either positive effects or nothing . But on the other hand there are proven facts that toddlers/babies learn only certain number of words in a given period. This implies kids at that age have limited capacity to memorize and recall things. So wouldn't that imply that bilingual training at that age would halve that capacity? Could bilingual babies have less volculbary in each language and late start in figuring out deeper nitty gritty of grammar? Is it possible that bilingual training at early age exchanges depth for a breadth?

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