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Why Inequality Matters

gatesnotes.com

451–460 of 462 posts

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#451
post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The experiment's already been done. No-one descended from the heavens and imposed our current governmental system; what we have now is what people did. If you remove the government, people band together into organizations that behave the same way: first you get something like a union where people pay dues and get certain benefits, their decision making structure evolves, and eventually the organization decides to cov…

>The experiment's already been done. I'd love to hear about it. >No-one descended from the heavens and imposed our current governmental system; what we have now is what people did. "What people did", isn't what you or I did, necessarily. Are you making the classic HN error of assuming that every reader lives in your country (usually the US)? Or do you think that every government is legitimate, no matter what, so long…

> Or do you think that every government is legitimate, no matter what, so long as it is not overthrown?

There are levels between "do nothing" and "overthrow". I don't think legitimacy is a binary thing.

> I don't think there's any doubt that if a government suddenly didn't exist, or could no longer pay its bills that we'd see alternative institutions take up the slack in certain areas. But it isn't necessarily a state entity that would do so, and this is clearly a main point of disagreement here.

I think (in this arbitrary and unrealistic scenario) those "alternative institutions" would be or rapidly become very governmentlike; whether they would be institutions with a flag and a seat the united nations is not terribly important. Honestly I don't see much difference even today between governments, large NGOs, and large corporations; all have similar decisionmaking processes and act in similar ways (though as I said, I think accountability is better for governments - and probably even worse for large NGOs). Some people consider a "monopoly on violence" to be a qualitative difference between government and non-government large organizations, but these "alternative institutions" in your scenario would definitely have to be willing to back up their policies with force, so they'd be governmentlike in that respect too.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#452
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"if you are living here then you are consuming here" - it strikes me that, the more you are poor the more you are bound to consume local. The richer you are the more choice you have where to consume (or where to invest, at some point of wealth this could also be considered as consumption). Therefore I tend to think that a consumption tax will penalize the poor.

Can you give an example of living in the US and consuming mostly somewhere else? Are you just talking about luxurious vacations to Europe?

I can't give you the requested example as I am living in Europe ;-) But what I mean seems to be more of a general rule. The richer you are the better choices you have to spend money on products that appeal to you, because your consumption/investment horizon widens. Vacations to other countries are indeed part of it. But it might be as well goods produced on the other side of the planet that you can buy, because you might have heard about them through your acquaintances. Whereas poor will not have the idea to look for alternatives.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#453
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If the noble concepts supposedly behind democracy had any traction with governments, they would have led us to a direct democracy, not a representative one. Switzerland seems to work pretty well by direct democracy.

Well, I was curious of what you mentioned, so I looked it up. Switzerland is a Federal multi-party directorial republic with elements of direct democracy. I do recall reading up on that recent referendum they had about the capping of CEO wages that didn't go through. But thanks for the heads up, I'll look into what they have going on over there with their flavor of democracy.

We also voted against an extra week of vacation here in Switzerland. And we decided to forbid the construction of minarets, a sad low-point in the history of our democracy. But you know what? It keeps everyone involved and engaged in political matters. Because in principle anyone can make a proposal, collect enough signatures, and there will be a binding vote. The mentality is "we control the government". Of course, there is still the manipulation of the masses, politicians prefer to re-interpret what we voted about (they aren't allowed, but often there is some gray area and they can delay things), and sometimes a majority decision seems to be a very bad emotional one. But in contrary to Germany, people here feel more in control over the government, rather than being helpless observers. If you don't like something, stop complaining and start collecting signatures. I'm usually not very patriotic, but if you want to take my direct vote away, you can pry it out of my dead hands.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't answer his question whether it's ok to try to neuter the power that people derive from certain innate attributes. I.e. is it OK to make an exceptionally good looking person pay a higher tax, because there's a loose correlation between physical appearance and one's ability to secure a good future? Furthermore, doesn't everyone deserve the same shot at procreating with a good looking individual? Shouldn't we…

Your argument is assuming that property rights are as important and as fundamental as other human rights. I personally am quite comfortable distinguishing between "what a person can own" and "what a person can be", and don't view property rights as anywhere near as fundamental as rights like freedom of speech or association or movement. So I think the notion of a slippery slope towards eugenics is absurd; that's like…

Ok, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Our respective systems of values seem to be fundamentally different, because I believe that property rights are sacrosanct and an extension of who we are.

In case you're curious how I came to that conclusion, here goes: in most cases (not involving criminal situations), private property is basically a store of our previously invested time. We spend a portion of our lives on learning skills and then applying those skills to certain ends, such as making money and acquiring property. If we assume that a human lifetime is finite, then reserving the right to redistribute private property and wealth is basically reserving the right to take the most valuable resource humans have - their time on this Earth.

So if I'm working 10 hours a day and I'm being taxed some 40% (through a combination of income, property and consumption tax), then it means I am working only 6 hours for myself and my own personal gain, and the remaining 4 hours in fact belong to someone else. Now, I apologize in advance for this loaded language, but to me, that is a form of slavery. No one has the right to demand, at gunpoint, that people give their time and person to an end that they don't care about and that doesn't directly improve their situation.

I feel very strongly about this, to the point where I left my country of birth (a European country with ridiculously high taxes), for a much better place where the taxes are much lower and more reasonable. It's a clear example of capital flight, on a smaller scale. I know my opinion is extremely unpopular in this day and age, but it is what it is. To me, strong property rights are some of the most basic human rights, no different than freedom of speech or association.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement is fallacious. If governments are more efficient at creating inventions and advancing science, then according to that logic, a big government with greater power should be more efficient at advancing technological and scientific progress. Yet, the majority of important technological and scientific inventions usually come from free-market based capitalistic societies. I don't see countries like North Kor…

USA has a larger government compared to GDP than both China and Russia (42% vs 36% and 24%). There are no stats for North Korea. If you want to argue the free-market gospel, then you have to explain why almost all third world countries have small governments and very low taxes.

Lol no they don't. Most third world countries actually have very strong authoritarian governments where any serious dissent is highly discouraged or even impossible. And even if they have low taxes, they sure compensate for that with regular currency debasement, widespread kleptocracy and stealing wealth from their citizens on a regular basis. This free-market "gospel" is based on hard facts, not some Marxist drivel.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#456

I appreciate Gates' analysis of Piketty, but Gates is still blind to an important point- he came from a middle-class background and therefore had enough capital to gain a footing in the world and to be able to write his initial code without worrying about the basic needs of survival. 40% of youth in the USA today do not even have that, and as such, have virtually no chance at all of being able to even play in the cap…

>40% of youth in the USA today do not even have that

Puh-leese. Who do you think is buying this? There's no way that figure is anywhere near accurate for people living in "abject poverty".

>Gates, Buffett, and others who claim to be philanthropists work from a point of ignorance, believing that all youth at least have their basic needs covered by this society.

You are aware that the Gates Foundation spends the majority of its resources in Africa, trying to get medicine to the thousands of children that die from ailments that are easily treatable in the US? Almost any child in the US looks massively privileged by comparison. The fact that almost all of our children live to adulthood is a testament to that.

>The idea of taking a couple of months without income to make a startup is laughable- how would I eat and make my house payment?

I don't really know what you're getting at here. Since you were poor growing up, you're too terrified to ever take the risk involved in a startup? Most people are, no matter their economic background. Most startup founders are taking the same kind of risk and don't have years of savings to live off of, but they gather the balls and do it anyway. You're attributing too much of this to your disadvantaged upbringing.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#457
post #87

"I don’t see anyone on the list whose ancestors bought a great parcel of land in 1780 and have been accumulating family wealth by collecting rents ever since." What you do see though, in the same Fortune 400 list is that 6 of the top 10 people on that list didn't build their companies (in the sense that Bill Gates did), they inherited them. I don't know how much the current crop Kochs or Waltons are responsible for t…

>Can you argue convincingly that these people would have been just as successful without the advantages of their births? I suspect that would be quite difficult.

Why shouldn't people be advantaged because of their birth? The most important thing to progenitors is usually their progeny. Many would even say securing privileges for their progeny is the reason they built what they did in the first place. If I work hard and build something, you can be assured I would want my son and 3 daughters to be able to share in the benefits, and I would hope that my work makes them more successful in their lives than they otherwise would've been. How is there any problem with that?

The real issue is that we don't want people to be unfairly advantaged and we don't want to have a system that builds exclusive monarchies and dynasties. We don't have such a system. You can still become a self-made man in the United States, and thousands of people do it every year.

I don't see how the system of inheritance we have now is unfair, except insofar as many people are jealous and want to take things neither they nor their parents have earned.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#458
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that always bothers me about wealth distribution is that you can't simply move wealth around and expect things to get better. People who have wealth are going to be better with that wealth than people who don't. They grew up with wealthy people, have managed the wealth for a long time, have witnessed mistakes and successes, and overall have spent a lot of time contemplating wealth. If you take that wealth a…

> People who have wealth are going to be better with that wealth than people who don't. Do you have any empirical data to back that up? The lack of old money that Gates alludes to in his article seems to suggest otherwise. Even with the advantages that simply having large amounts of wealth gives you (better education, easier access to seed capital for new ventures, better access to other influential people etc), surp…

>> People who have wealth are going to be better with that wealth than people who don't. > Do you have any empirical data to back that up? The lack of old money that Gates alludes to in his article seems to suggest otherwise.

Gates looked at a list of the very wealthiest people and asked how many inherited their wealth. Even if the answer is 0%, we could still ask about other brackets. Eg, how likely are Gates' descendants to be in the bottom income bracket? How likely are the children of someone in the bottom bracket to be middle class?

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is assuming that property rights are as important and as fundamental as other human rights. I personally am quite comfortable distinguishing between "what a person can own" and "what a person can be", and don't view property rights as anywhere near as fundamental as rights like freedom of speech or association or movement. So I think the notion of a slippery slope towards eugenics is absurd; that's like…

Ok, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Our respective systems of values seem to be fundamentally different, because I believe that property rights are sacrosanct and an extension of who we are. In case you're curious how I came to that conclusion, here goes: in most cases (not involving criminal situations), private property is basically a store of our previously invested time. We spend a portion…

Yeah, you're probably right. Irreconcilable differences.

I think the origin of my socialism is that, honestly, I don't trust things. This is a topic that often comes up in Bitcoin threads: there is no such thing as a perfect store of value. There is no thing I can invest my time or money in that will not decay or depreciate over time. Currencies inflate. Houses fall down. Land fluctuates in value and can agriculturally fail. The gold supply inflates at a roughly constant rate of 1.5% as people dig more up. Uranium decays, albeit slowly.

On the other hand, I have a very positive view of social networks. I grew up in the middle of a strong safety net. My parents, my siblings, my aunts and uncles and cousins, we grew up close. If I needed help, they'd give it. If I lost everything today, they'd take me in for as long as I needed. Since then, I've acquired a few close friends who would help me out, with a job or a place to crash.

So even if I cannot trust my things not to betray me, having fifty people and all their resources there to catch me if I fall brings me a great deal of security and comfort. So I like the added layer of protection that comes from a safety net of 300 million people. I don't view taxes as something being taken from me, I view them as an investment I'm making in the only resource which has a chance of holding its own against time, no different than the time and money I invest in my kith and kin.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Our respective systems of values seem to be fundamentally different, because I believe that property rights are sacrosanct and an extension of who we are. In case you're curious how I came to that conclusion, here goes: in most cases (not involving criminal situations), private property is basically a store of our previously invested time. We spend a portion…

Yeah, you're probably right. Irreconcilable differences. I think the origin of my socialism is that, honestly, I don't trust things. This is a topic that often comes up in Bitcoin threads: there is no such thing as a perfect store of value. There is no thing I can invest my time or money in that will not decay or depreciate over time. Currencies inflate. Houses fall down. Land fluctuates in value and can agricultural…

I understand your viewpoint. It's interesting how your lack of trust for things made you become socialist, while my lack of trust for people made me develop anarcho-capitalist tendencies. I guess everyone's political philosophy tends to stem from their core personality traits. Interesting.

My issue with the concept of centralized power in the society is that it has a tendency to consolidate over time and if left unchecked, tyranny is almost inevitable. Sure, you trust your government now, but nation-states generally have a very ugly history of oppressing and even exterminating portions of their population every once in a while. I just don't believe that they can be trusted not to do it again. Not everyone is a good person, and many people in the higher rungs of power tend to have psychopathic tendencies.

So at the end of the day, you don't trust your physical assets not to betray you, but you tend to trust the society you live in. My mindset is completely opposite: I don't think that people can be trusted not to do bad things. You mentioned bitcoin, and I think this is one of the elements that it solves almost perfectly: it eliminates the need for trust, if used correctly. Strong gun rights solve the same problem, they almost completely eliminate the need for trust: I don't have to trust the society to respect my property rights, I just have to trust that most people are not crazy enough to try to get themselves shot.

I think socialism is a nice concept and I think that the idea of helping the less fortunate is commendable. The problem is that it has to rely on the coercive element (uniformed men with guns showing up at your door) if you disagree with the system.

Not to drag this out much longer; as someone who strongly believes in non-violence, self-ownership, self-governance and rejects most forms of collectivism, I can't agree with pointing guns at people in order to create a safety net for others. It defeats the spirit of charity and looks more like extortion and robbery. In my opinion, helping the less fortunate should a voluntary act that stems from one's desire to do good, rather than fear of being violated.

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