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A Raw Deal in Michigan

teslamotors.com

101–110 of 201 posts

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#101
post #33

Harsh statements, but no facts from objective sources. Looking for that, I can find stuff from 'the other side' at http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ejuo53qtuul1s2fn2o4sa255))/... where if I reading this right (aside: 'interesting' reuse of "(i)" as both ninth letter of the alphabet and Roman numeral) section i reads "(1) A manufacturer shall not do any of the following: (i) Sell any new motor vehicle directly to a re…

Here's a diff of the changes https://www.diffchecker.com/idjdre6n

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#102
post #99
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a Detroit suburb, a large number of the residents here are engineers, many for GM, Ford and Chrysler, but quite a few for Toyota, Hyundai and other foreign suppliers (like Bosch and Yazaki). I see many domestic, but almost as many imports here. I think a lot of the stigma is gone, certainly there is considerable pressure for people to drive their employers vehicle to work, but at least in my (relatively ups…

Agree. I worked for one of these three companies for a span. While I was there, they did have a rule that if you're not driving their car, you can't park it in the covered parking lot. That was the extent of the backlash, and I've lived in this area most of my life. I think a lot of these stories and anecdotes about tires getting slashed, and people being harassed for driving foreign are not accurate today.

I think part of that might be the crowds you hang with. I would expect petty vandalism more from blue collar types than I would engineers and other professional types.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#103

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

We have the best legislators money can buy

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Michigan, and was dishearten when I read about this story the other day. But not really that surprised. A few observations: - Tesla isn't a name brand here like Ford or GM. In fact, if you asked a lot of people if we should help the Big Three with this sort of legislation, you might be surprised by the answer. Remember, they generate a LOT of jobs in this state: not just the Big Three, but the tier 2 and ti…

Cold weather performance is trumpeted a lot by EV detractors, but the number one selling new car in Norway last month was the Tesla Model S. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/08/tesla-norway-idUSL... Here's an interesting interview from Elon Musk about the Tesla battery winter performance. http://cleantechnica.com/2013/03/01/interview-with-elon-musk...

From your first link:

> "Electric cars have been especially popular in Norway because of generous subsidies, free parking, government-provided re-charging stations, the right to use express lanes on highways and exemptions from tolls."

Yeah, Michigan has (almost) none of that.

Cold weather battery performance could be ignored here if there were charging stations all over. Sure, there are a handful of charging stations scattered around if you live in Ann Arbor or something, but it's not like I can drive from there to Traverse City and reliably find charging stations. Especially in cold weather where I couldn't make it on one charge without freezing in the cabin. And good luck in the Upper Peninsula.

I'd love to own a Tesla / other electric vehicle. But between the cost, the winter performance, and the current lack of infrastructure, it's just not smart IMHO.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#105

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

That's rather dramatic but then again this is the sort of response the blog post is meant to elicit. Tesla has proven to be very adept at working with state governments for financial gain so it would appear that they're not complaining about the closeness of state government and automobile companies. Just that they came out on the losing end for now of this particular instance - "Greater Phoenix Economic Council Pres…

I disagree. It's blatant corruption and it's not dramatic to call it out.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#106
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the question was whether or not to ban lobbying, how do the benefits of lobbying stack up against the damage? That whole cost-benefit analysis thing...

Lobbying also includes when you call your representative to complain about a certain issue. So, to ban lobbying outright is to ban input from every citizen to their representative.

Solution: Only a candidate can pay for ads, campaigning, and the like. There is a campaign contribution cap reasonably low as your average citizen could reach it. None of these BS PACs, none of this "I'll make a large donation if you 'listen' to what I want".

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#107
post #78

When I hear about Tesla not being able to sell directly to customers, and have to go through dealer, I always wondered why different corporate structure can not be created, where some head company owns Tesla and all dealerships used to sell Tesla cars? This way it is not manufacturer selling these and control of the distribution is still within parent organization.

IIRC in many states dealerships are required to have independent ownership from the manufacturer and no individual/company can own more than one.

Is there some sort of test tho? I.e. what I was proposing - dealearship could be separate company and owned by head corporation, which in turn owns Tesla itself. So dealership is separate entity and not directly controlled by Tesla.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#108
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's rather dramatic but then again this is the sort of response the blog post is meant to elicit. Tesla has proven to be very adept at working with state governments for financial gain so it would appear that they're not complaining about the closeness of state government and automobile companies. Just that they came out on the losing end for now of this particular instance - "Greater Phoenix Economic Council Pres…

I disagree. It's blatant corruption and it's not dramatic to call it out.

So do you expect, now that Tesla's made people aware of this, that the politician will be prosecuted for corruption? Or do you think what's happening here is legal but it just makes you feel uncomfortable? And if it's the latter how do you think you'd feel about Tesla if you were privy to all the discussions and offers and horse trading that would have occurred over the location of their battery plant?

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#109
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you can do this. Isn't the point of the franchise that it's owned by someone else? For example, if McDonald's corporate opens a location owned by them, can they called it a "franchise" location?

I think you can have it owned by a different company but with the same leadership as the parent. Isn't this how liability shields work? Lots of different LLCs with the same people at the helm?

It is easy enough to define franchise as having different control than the parent. This is fairly standard. In fact, the bill has some language about franchises not being acquired, owned, or controlled by a manufacturer or any entity in which the manufacturer has a 45% ownership interest.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#110
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, thanks, we know. One could even say this is the core reason for many of the USA's other problems: the continuing financial crisis, for-profit medical system, huge rates of incarceration, justice system inequalities based on money, ever-widening income disparity, obscenely massive government spending, I could go on. The only solution is to have the legislators pass a law to stop it. Because they are huge benefici…

What about when campaign finance reform was passed? I thought that it was a fantastic idea, but we ended up with super PACs, which have seemingly unlimited funds. Even worse, the politicians they support can say that they don't have control and shed any liability. I too want to hear ideas for fixing the system, but I think it is going to take more than just a few laws being passed.

Check out Lawrence Lessig and MAYDAY
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