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A Raw Deal in Michigan

teslamotors.com

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Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#51

Post by brk »

Shivetya wrote: post #50

Honestly Tesla, STAY OUT OF MICHIGAN. If you refuse to do business with the state, go as far as to discourage people living there form buying them, eventually there could be enough public pressure to bring about a change. If not that, perhaps a few billboards equating the politicians to Neanderthals might work Its time to ignore the states that refuse to play fair, shame them, and perhaps their voters will wake up.

At this point in time, Tesla is still less than a rounding error on automobile sales. Ignoring potential markets and counting on the public to "do the right thing" would seem like a suicidal strategy to me. Do you have examples of where this approach has worked?

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#52

Post by _delirium »

briandear wrote: post #11

But this really comes down to voting. Why does a better funded candidate win? Because a TV ad convinced some idiot to vote for that candidate? I see informercials and "work from home and make millions" scams all the time. But I don't buy the product whatever it might be. Yet voters seemingly are completely ignorant. So candidates who are well funded by special interests end up winning. But often these anti-competitiv…

The politician called out by name here, state senator Joe Hune, is a Republican. The Republican Party also controls the legislature that passed this bill: they hold a supermajority (68%) of seats in the Michigan Senate, and a majority (54%) of seats in the Michigan House. And, the governor is a Republican. So I doubt the explanation for this case, at least, can be laid specifically at the feet of the Democratic Party trying to restrict trade.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#53

Post by kabdib »

[deleted] wrote: post #45
skrebbel wrote: post #22

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

[deleted]

Took less than a minute to find it

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2013-2014/billenroll...

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#54

Post by oatmeal_coffee »

spacefight wrote: post #28
Heliosmaster wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always the same story with Lobbying. If you say "I'm giving you $1M to pass this law", it's corruption, if you say "I'm giving you $1M, but if you don't pass this law i'm going to withdraw it", then it's lobbying.

Hence, lobbying equals corruption. Period.

You can't paint all lobbying with the same brush. There are beneficial lobbying groups out there helping to bring a voice to issues in an arena where they would otherwise normally be drowned out. We just focus on the bad ones because they tend to have greater influence. Absolutist positions such as this are rarely true and sensible.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#55

Post by KayEss »

protonfish wrote: post #42
skrebbel wrote: post #22

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

Yes, thanks, we know. One could even say this is the core reason for many of the USA's other problems: the continuing financial crisis, for-profit medical system, huge rates of incarceration, justice system inequalities based on money, ever-widening income disparity, obscenely massive government spending, I could go on. The only solution is to have the legislators pass a law to stop it. Because they are huge benefici…

This just came up in another comment on HN: http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_t...

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#56

Post by karl_nerd »

kabdib wrote: post #53
[deleted] wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Took less than a minute to find it http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2013-2014/billenroll...

i guess this is the actual section they talk about:

(i) Sell any new motor vehicle directly to a retail customer other than through franchised dealers, unless the retail customer is a nonprofit organization or a federal, state, or local government or agency. This subdivision does not prohibit a manufacturer from providing information to a consumer for the purpose of marketing or facilitating the sale of new motor vehicles or from establishing a program to sell or offer to sell new motor vehicles through franchised new motor vehicle dealers that sell and service new motor vehicles produced by the manufacturer.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#57

Post by DavidWanjiru »

oatmeal_coffee wrote: post #54
spacefight wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence, lobbying equals corruption. Period.

You can't paint all lobbying with the same brush. There are beneficial lobbying groups out there helping to bring a voice to issues in an arena where they would otherwise normally be drowned out. We just focus on the bad ones because they tend to have greater influence. Absolutist positions such as this are rarely true and sensible.

If the question was whether or not to ban lobbying, how do the benefits of lobbying stack up against the damage? That whole cost-benefit analysis thing...

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#58

Post by freshflowers »

skrebbel wrote: post #22

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

Oh, get of your high horse.

In the Netherlands it's done via mutual favors, usually in the form of cushy and insanely overpaid jobs for former politicians and civil servants in exchange for favorable laws and government contracts. This happens openly in a way that would be called scandalous corruption in Germany.

In the Netherlands, we call what happens in other countries corruption and think our own shit doesn't smell. And because international corruption stats are usually self-reporting, we maintain the illusion we are squeaky clean. Bullshit.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#59

Post by khaki54 »

As a Michigan native (though long gone) and someone erring on the side of conservatism, this is just a disappointment all around. Michigan is historically manufacturer friendly - to a fault, so they really went out of their way here.

Eventually all of these statutes will probably be stricken down due to the commerce clause... you are buying the vehicle direct from another state, therefore it's interstate commerce.

Re: A Raw Deal in Michigan

#60

Post by Confusion »

freshflowers wrote: post #58
skrebbel wrote: post #22

Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wife’s firm lobbies for the dealers. In the Netherlands, we call this corruption. (It h…

Oh, get of your high horse. In the Netherlands it's done via mutual favors, usually in the form of cushy and insanely overpaid jobs for former politicians and civil servants in exchange for favorable laws and government contracts. This happens openly in a way that would be called scandalous corruption in Germany. In the Netherlands, we call what happens in other countries corruption and think our own shit doesn't sme…

There are fairly objective rankings of this sort of thing[1] and both The Netherlands and Germany score significantly better than the US.

That we also have corruption does not mean it is as bad as elsewhere and does not mean we don't get to call out blatant examples of it, especially blatant examples of the sort that are easy to get rid of by calling them out.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

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