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Why Inequality Matters

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401–410 of 462 posts

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The elephant that everybody pretends that isn't in the room is that what you just called weapons is the ability to create wealth. Do we really need to take it away from everybody? Any time you're considering a tax system you have to consider the incentives it creates for people. If you have a "wealth tax" then we have to consider how the rich will try to avoid it. First, people will convert from savings and investm…

> Most importantly, the only way that a wealth tax is going to do what Piketty wants is if the rate is higher than the typical rate of return on capital. Note that one important reason why Piketty wants a wealth tax is that this would lead to much higher quality data on the wealth distribution (I haven't read the book, but he says so very clearly in his TED talk). > But if it's higher then the economic incentives it…

> Note that one important reason why Piketty wants a wealth tax is that this would lead to much higher quality data on the wealth distribution (I haven't read the book, but he says so very clearly in his TED talk).

The problem with this argument is that it's based in the same fantasy land where people always report all of their out of state and internet purchases to their state of residence and pay sales tax on them.

> Frankly, this sounds much too alarmist. First of all, the talk is always about a progressive wealth tax in the first place. That is, few people would be affected by the highest tier.

That actually makes it worse. All the bad still applies to the people in the highest tier, but then you have the incentive to create criminal conspiracies for the purposes of tax avoidance, because putting assets in the name of someone with fewer assets will dramatically lower the tax rate. This creates a highly profitable arbitrage opportunity except for the fact that it would presumably be illegal, leaving an opportunity for criminal enterprise to step in.

> Second, if you think about the steady state, it's clear that wealth up to the level of the highest tier of taxation wouldn't be accumulated in the first place.

> My intuition for this comes from income taxes: During the time when highest marginal rates were much higher than today, executives didn't bother bargaining for the ridiculously high salaries that they get today, and so few people really paid those highest rates.

Those numbers are very misleading. The times when the highest marginal tax rates were higher also had dramatically different tax codes. In particular, "benefits" largely weren't taxed, so instead of a higher salary you would be provided with an expensive company car and whatever else necessary to provide the required level of compensation. It's the same principle as the existing corporate income tax: High nominal rates but the majority of large corporations don't pay those rates because there are widely known ways to avoid them.

It was also much more common back then for the executives to be the owners or their friends/relatives, so their "salaries" were only coming out of their own pockets anyway.

> Yes, people would try to evade taxes, but they are already doing this today.

Because the taxes we have today are also poorly conceived. What you want is a tax which applies to a very broad base and is difficult to avoid. VAT acquits itself very well on that front.

> And if you're worried about people renouncing citizenship: I think we should grow a pair and get serious about exit taxes.

Exit taxes are hopeless. Even putting aside how easy they are to avoid, the incentive that creates for the owners of growing businesses is extremely perverse: Renounce your citizenship now before you get any bigger and owe even more.

> As a final thought, the idea of using a VAT to finance a basic income is nice, but it doesn't help against wealth inequality, because poor people generally spend a much higher fraction of their disposable income on stuff on which VAT is paid.

This is a common flaw in thinking about taxation. What you spend the money on is just as important as how you raise it. Taking $50 from someone with a thousand dollars and $10 from someone with a hundred dollars but then giving them each $30 back is progressive notwithstanding that the effective tax rate on the person with a thousand dollars is much lower. At the end of the day the person who started with $100 now has $120 and the extra $20 came out of the pocket of the person with a thousand dollars. "Effective tax rate" is a totally meaningless number without "effective government benefits."

Comparing this to the current so-called progressive system is illuminating. For example, if a person making $500K makes an extra $5000 then they pay $1750 in taxes but don't lose eligibility for any benefits they were previously eligible for. If a person making $25K makes an extra $5000 then they pay $750 in taxes but also lose eligibility for more than $1000/year in need-based programs. In practical effect the marginal rate on the person making $25K is higher. Depending on what (and how many) programs they were previously eligible for, the rate can actually exceed 100% by simultaneously eliminating eligibility for multiple independent programs.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#402
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with differentiating between the "good investor" and the "lavish lifestyle guy" is that the good investor is actually the one that you (rather, Piketty) need to be most worried about. People worried about inequality aren't (just) worried about the morality of consumption -- a fat cat sitting atop a mountain of cash drinking champagne and eating caviar while the peasants starve. They're worried about maint…

One thing that always bothers me about wealth distribution is that you can't simply move wealth around and expect things to get better. People who have wealth are going to be better with that wealth than people who don't. They grew up with wealthy people, have managed the wealth for a long time, have witnessed mistakes and successes, and overall have spent a lot of time contemplating wealth. If you take that wealth a…

"The average person isn't as well equipped to deal with large problems as the elite are. "

I tend to disagree but I guess it depends on your definition of "Elite". If I define "Elite" as wealthy people than you are wrong. Most rich people, especially if the wealth is inherited, have little to no idea how to solve "large" problems and what are the problems in the world.

I give you two quotes to think about. Both quotes are not meant condescending but just shows how out of touch they were with the common people.

Finally I recalled the stopgap solution of a great princess who was told that the peasants had no bread, and who responded: "Let them eat brioche." (Queen Marie Antoinette)

"An ancient Chinese emperor who, being told that his subjects didn't have enough rice to eat, replied, 'Why don't they eat meat?' (何不食肉糜?)Emperor Hui of Jin in Zizhi Tongjian.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you see this system of the elite ruling as an ideal that will never be reached (a la Plato's Republic) or as a practical system? Because in the latter case, you've got an intractable problem on your hands. The problem is a basic political systems one: at some point, you need the consent of the governed. There are no stable systems on the record where a majority of those governed dislike the leadership. Either the…

It's a good point. But are there always only two groups, the elite and the majority, or could we create more? It seems to me power works best for everyone when it is more distributed, less uniform, and exists on a gradient from the elites down to the majority. Maybe a government structure could enforce that. For example, instead of just America's, Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches, we might also have addit…

What you're saying is basically boils down to maximizing the complexity (integrated information) of the system. That is possible by increasing differentiation and integration. It is better power to be divided in more fragments, each differentiated from the rest, and then integrated with each other so as to be forced to create a dynamic equilibrium. That's what our brains are doing too, on a scale much more complex.

As reference, the concept of integrated information was developed by Giulio Tononi but I applied it in a different field.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#404
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with differentiating between the "good investor" and the "lavish lifestyle guy" is that the good investor is actually the one that you (rather, Piketty) need to be most worried about. People worried about inequality aren't (just) worried about the morality of consumption -- a fat cat sitting atop a mountain of cash drinking champagne and eating caviar while the peasants starve. They're worried about maint…

One thing that always bothers me about wealth distribution is that you can't simply move wealth around and expect things to get better. People who have wealth are going to be better with that wealth than people who don't. They grew up with wealthy people, have managed the wealth for a long time, have witnessed mistakes and successes, and overall have spent a lot of time contemplating wealth. If you take that wealth a…

>It's an unpopular opinion, but I don't think that everyone should have a roughly equal say in how things go. The average person isn't as well equipped to deal with large problems as the elite are. Everyone has different specialties, and different volumes of abilities. You wouldn't let an intern have an equal say as a senior engineer when designing the core infrastructure. You especially wouldn't let the janitor have an equal say - he's got no experience in desiging such things!

>I'm always very uneasy about equality talks because all people are not equally suited to make global policy decisions. Nor are they equally incentivized to make the most informed and rational decisions.

I completely agree with this, however I don't think the guiding principle behind having a democracy in the first place, is that you'll arrive at optimum (or even good) policy decisions, provided you give everyone a say. Rather, the franchise is supposed to serve as a check on the wealthy and the ruling class, so that they can not monopolize political power. If the disparity in wealth and power grows too great, they can circumvent even that, which is what we're seeing happen in the West now.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently, 436 people (Reps, Senators and President) control nearly 4 trillion dollars, the budget for this year. What should we do about them?

One possible solution - add more representatives to make the power less consolidated.

Another possible solution: give them only 2 trillion to spend

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#406

ironical from a multiple times convicted monopolist

Convicted, oh no —it's worse than that. Now he is a hero figure one national pride. For those who express doubts to national pride, HN underside them to this thread.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#407
"Imagine three types of wealthy people. One guy is putting his capital into building his business. Then there’s a woman who’s giving most of her wealth to charity. A third person is mostly consuming, spending a lot of money on things like a yacht and plane. While it’s true that the wealth of all three people is contributing to inequality, I would argue that the first two are delivering more value to society than the third."

Of course buying yourself things you don't need delivers less value to society than commerce or philanthropy. Of course. Absolutely.

But maybe...

Maybe buying yourself things gives you the chance to have unique experiences. Maybe hitting golf balls into the ocean from the deck of your megayacht gives you the relaxing moment you need to figure out how to boost profits by 300%. Maybe doing a ton of blow and driving a Jaguar give you the necessary experiences to write awesome rock tunes that inspire millions. Maybe if Galileo Galilei hadn't bought himself a lump of clear glass in 1609 we wouldn't know about space.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine there are two products on the market: "the promise of $130 in 5 years" and "$100 today." The fact that people choose to exchange one product for the other every day suggests that the two products have equal value.[0] Capital gains taxes mean that these two products of equal value are taxed at different rates. Although I work a lot of hours too, I find that quite unfair. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_v…

Ah, but there are different ways to solve that problem. One is to reduce the capital gains tax rate , perhaps to zero. The other is to subtract the expected return (based on the risk-free rate of return) from the gain, and then apply some nonzero tax rate to the remainder. Here's why the latter makes more sense to me. It's only at the risk-free rate of return that the two products you describe are of equal value. In…

> In order to realize returns higher than the risk-free rate, investors must do work.

1. Are you claiming that taking risk is a form of work? Because the correlation between risk and expected return holds up very well empirically, and it'd take a lot to convince me that buying shares of an S&P500 ETF is a form of work that I should be taxed on. Even if risk and expected return had no correlation, it'd still only require luck, not necessarily skill, to often realize returns higher than the risk-free rate--just purchase one share of each of 100 risky stocks, and I guarantee that you'll have a significant return on at least one of them.

2. There is a shockingly large body of evidence that excess returns, for the vast majority of people the vast majority of the time, are the spoils of luck, not work. Mutual fund managers, for example--whose literal job it is to earn excess returns--perform in aggregate roughly as well as the market, and the very best performers, at the extreme tail of the distribution, in one year are barely more likely than chance to do better than average the following year, and people in the bulk of the distribution are essentially flipping coins.[0] Again, these are people whose job it is to beat the market, and they're failing miserably.

3. In cases where people really are working for returns, I completely agree with you. This is income and should be taxed--as income. But in cases where someone is investing their own savings, they really are just trading a certain present value for an uncertain future value.

[0] http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1356021

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#409
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you take that wealth and move it to the average person. Wealth redistribution doesn't necessarily mean taking money/wealth, literally, from wealthy and giving it away to poor. It includes, among others, subsidized education, free access to basic health care, nutritious food, potable water, eradication of epidemics, decent housing, decent retirement income and so on. This is the problem I see in societies that ar…

"Wealth redistribution doesn't necessarily mean taking money/wealth, literally, from wealthy and giving it away to poor. " What? How could you possibly describe it any other way? You take cash from a wealthy person, and you give it to other people, either in dirk react payments or sbisized/free services. Argue about whether that is the correct/incorrect thing to do all you lie, but don't indulge in Orwellian doublesp…

Looks like you're getting downvoted, even though your statement is basically correct. It's very sad that it's getting harder and harder to have a fruitful discussion here on HN. Some people are more interested in downvoting based on their immediate emotional reaction, rather than having a rational, honest discussion.

If you disagree with someone, then reply to their post and try to have civilized discourse, don't just immediately try to censor them.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with differentiating between the "good investor" and the "lavish lifestyle guy" is that the good investor is actually the one that you (rather, Piketty) need to be most worried about. People worried about inequality aren't (just) worried about the morality of consumption -- a fat cat sitting atop a mountain of cash drinking champagne and eating caviar while the peasants starve. They're worried about maint…

Replace "wealth" with "intelligence", "attractiveness" or even "physical strength", and you get similar threats. Big, strong people could hurt us at any time, and "it's only through their continuing mercy that they haven't"; intelligent people could manipulate or persuade us, while attractive people could seduce us for their own benefit. And yet, we still let people go to the gym to work out and go to school and read…

First, a pretty face, high IQ and physical strength do not translate into power the way, say, a hundred million dollars does. Sure you can hurt people if you're physically strong / attractive / smart, but not that many people.

Second, if you believe law should only punish us for actually hurting people and not potentially hurting them, then you are against speed limits.

Third, taxes are not punishment any more than piracy is theft and abortion is murder.

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