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Why Inequality Matters

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391–400 of 462 posts

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#391
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with differentiating between the "good investor" and the "lavish lifestyle guy" is that the good investor is actually the one that you (rather, Piketty) need to be most worried about. People worried about inequality aren't (just) worried about the morality of consumption -- a fat cat sitting atop a mountain of cash drinking champagne and eating caviar while the peasants starve. They're worried about maint…

What about the common libertarian viewpoint that we should limit the scope of government so that the rich guys don't have any significant political power to hijack? This comes without the slowing of economic growth that would be caused by higher taxes on capital.

Exactly. People of a partisan flavour ( and I see much evidence sprinkled throughout these comments) believe that their guy is clean and only has their best interests at heart, while the other guy is evil and greedy.

They're all in it for themselves. The key is to ensure that there isn't a big enough state to corrupt so they can consolidate and entrench their power.

A small state prevents monoloploies from being formed and from using those wielding power to consolidate their power. And then it doesn't matter how evil the guy who gets the top job is, because he just can't make a big difference.

At the heart of all this is how England managed to keep its Anglo-Saxon self-government traditions even after the continental Norman invasion and takeover. Because the Normans could only ever wield limited power at the state level, they could never fundamentally change the way the content was run at a local level. So citizen assemblies and English common law continued and was never replaced with continental law, the final iteration of which is based on napoleanic code. Thus in England, and her spun-off colonies, you're fundamentally free to do your own thing unless there is a specific law against it, while most other places state that you can only do something if there law explicitly states it.

This fantastic inheritance was all bequeathed to the citizens of those countries with legal systems based on common law precisely because England had a weak central government which reduced the ability of a king to control everyone, especially when that was a foreign king who had invaded.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#392
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with differentiating between the "good investor" and the "lavish lifestyle guy" is that the good investor is actually the one that you (rather, Piketty) need to be most worried about. People worried about inequality aren't (just) worried about the morality of consumption -- a fat cat sitting atop a mountain of cash drinking champagne and eating caviar while the peasants starve. They're worried about maint…

One thing that always bothers me about wealth distribution is that you can't simply move wealth around and expect things to get better. People who have wealth are going to be better with that wealth than people who don't. They grew up with wealthy people, have managed the wealth for a long time, have witnessed mistakes and successes, and overall have spent a lot of time contemplating wealth. If you take that wealth a…

Whilst not everyone has a good understanding of a wide range of complex topics (economics, diplomacy, medical science etc.) they have a very acute understanding of their own best interests. Having a democracy ensures that policy makers at least have to convince people that something is in their best interests.

Just because a policy maker is capable of convincing the public that something is in their best interests, does not always mean that it is.

However the fact that they have to works enough of the time that democracy is working better than other systems of government so far by many measures.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but that a system "perfectly designed for outcomes humans like" is equivalent to creating strong AI that happens to run on a market economy. Isn't that assuming that "market economy" is something "perfectly designed for outcomes humans like"? I disagree with treating current economic system as something inherently optimal - it has a lot of problems, all of which we can see even today. I agree with the equivalence t…

I think we agree. My intent was not to laud the market so much as to kill the hope of a perfectly-designed system by showing that the thing requires Elua to make it really "work out well" from our perspective. We do a whole lot of stuff to satisfy Gnon---marketing, sales, firing people, etc. Sometimes that happens to also satisfy Elua, like when we get iPhones. But Gnon MUST be resisted sometimes, and I think philant…

I see now that we do indeed agree.

Philanthropy is what happens when you manage to escape the reach of Gnon, even for a little while. People like Bill&Melinda are able to directly address the needs that neither markets nor governments can satisfy.

> I'm convinced that it is only the good faith of enough actors that allows any system to function at all.

I think that how many actors displaying good faith we accumulate in a single system is a degree to which we have control over Gnon. It's actually sad that as societies instead of working to increase trust in one another, we're trying to take it out of the equation. We're literally sacrificing our futures to Moloch in exchange for temporary security. The less a system is interruptable by humans enforcing human values, the more any error in encoding those values in the system is squeezing us (hence, FAI problem), and we're both aware of how such systems tend to evolve.

ETA

The way some people don't understand how we're screwing ourselves over with market economy reminds me of a thing I learned in high school physics class.

The equation for potential energy in a gravity field goes like E = -G m_a m_b / r, with r being the distance between the two attrated bodies. But when you're learning about gravity for the first time, you're being taught the E = mgh equation, where g is a constant acceleration and h is the height above the surface. In one case, energy is proportional to 1/r; in the other, it is proportional to r. So how do you reconcile those two views, and how is it that people didn't stumble upon the first equation before the second one, and that we can do a lot of good computations with it?

When you draw a graph of E(r) (first equation) you'll get a hyperbola. But if you zoom in hard enough, to the area of typical values of r we encounter daily, you'll see a straight line. Gravitational attraction linearizes pretty well in the range of parameters we're used to deal with every day.

In a similar way, there is a disconnect between human values and the market that is supposed to help optimize for them. They are aligned, but not perfectly. Many people seem to have zoomed in so far that they see a straight line where they should see a hyperbole, a growing deviation from desired course.

This is exactly what we're seeing today. To put it bluntly, market economy, or Moloch in general, has outlived its usefulness. It is optimizing values increasingly decoupled from our own, so it's high time to start thinking how to get rid of it.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#394
At some point in the Matrix movies, Neo learns he is not the first Neo. If you read Hegel, you learn that capitalism is not the first economic system. It was preceded by feudalism, which was preceded by the slave latifundia of Rome and Babylon which was preceded by the hunter-gatherer bands that the world was solely covered with 10,000 years ago. Hegel saw enlightened, capitalist Prussia as the epitome of human civilization, but like those biologists who note that even humans are still evolving, Marx and Engels noted that the fourth economic system the world had thrown up might not be the last one, and that crises (like the one we had in 2008) were signs of the cancer it was dying from.

The interview question on stages nowadays seems to be what does someone believe in that is not commonly believed, and I supposed the out idea now is the people who control production, the people who own capital are not interested in economy growing as fast as it sustainably can. They want a slower rate of growth in order to maintain more control of the system. This idea not only goes against current economic thinking, and investor's chasing of maximum returns, it's an anti-Marxist idea as well. It seems to be happening though. It's why people like Paul Allen and Nathan Myhrvold pour money into patent companies. It's why the joint chiefs of staff beg the Congress to cut funding for old Cold War tank factories every time the military budget comes up, but the billions for useless tanks, or the hundreds of billions for the designed by committee F-35 boondoggle etc.

As Marx notes, something like a "war on poverty" is a joke, since people are not only purposefully kept poor but purposefully thrown into poverty, like during the enclosure of the commons in Europe. A surplus army of labor is a major tool to keep workers from keeping more of the wealth they create.

Sooner or later, the good ship USS Wall Street will inevitably run aground, and the economy will grind to a halt in a way that will make modern Greece or 1930s USA look good. Then it will just be a question of what working class people and professionals do in their new situation. It's not really the working class people, who are familiar enough with reality, who one has to wonder about, it's more the US professional classes, who are more highly indoctrinated than probably any group of people in the world. I hold my mouth in awe as I hear US professionals pontificating about things going on half-way around the world in which they know absolutely nothing about. NPR is ultimately a heavier propaganda outlet than Der Stürmer, Правда or Fox News.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#395
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with any consumption tax is that wealthier people spend a smaller percentage of their income on needs compared to lower classes. If you make it progressive, they will just buy their most expensive items overseas and never (or hide?) the import and avoid the tax. Anytime you try to regulate, there will be people making big money trying to find workarounds. Anyway, taxing in this way imposes a moral judgeme…

Imagine there are two products on the market: "the promise of $130 in 5 years" and "$100 today." The fact that people choose to exchange one product for the other every day suggests that the two products have equal value.[0] Capital gains taxes mean that these two products of equal value are taxed at different rates. Although I work a lot of hours too, I find that quite unfair. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_v…

Ah, but there are different ways to solve that problem. One is to reduce the capital gains tax rate, perhaps to zero. The other is to subtract the expected return (based on the risk-free rate of return) from the gain, and then apply some nonzero tax rate to the remainder.

Here's why the latter makes more sense to me. It's only at the risk-free rate of return that the two products you describe are of equal value. In order to realize returns higher than the risk-free rate, investors must do work. I think that the extra gain beyond the risk-free rate should be taxed as ordinary income, because that's really what it is: income produced by work.

Of course, actually implementing this policy isn't quite trivial: it requires a running estimate of the risk-free rate of return that can be agreed on politically, and it requires knowing exactly when assets changed hands (down to the nanosecond, for HFT). But it's well within our computational capabilities at this point.

So, should people who just stick their money in the bank at 0% for some period of time be able to claim a small loss on it? I would be fine with that, actually.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#396
post #31
post #10

I must say Bill Gates, in his post Microsoft avatar, continues to surprise me constantly. This is a refreshingly candid and sanguine review of Piketty's book from someone who was a ruthless capitalist not so long ago. Gates rightly (and self-servingly) also points out that Piketty does not consider philanthropy as a means to correct some of capitalism's imbalances. Here's a few of Gates' conclusions: > Piketty is rig…

> Gates rightly (and self-servingly) also points out that Piketty does not consider philanthropy as a means to correct some of capitalism's imbalances Doesn't your use of "self-servingly" here apply to anyone who acts consistently on their beliefs? If Gates (a) believes that philanthropy is ethical and effective, and he therefore both (b) engages in philanthropy and (c) advocates philanthropy, then (b) and (c) are se…

> Doesn't your use of "self-servingly" here apply to anyone who acts consistently on their beliefs?

It doesn't seem that way to me -- the "self-servingly" is applicable because it's deflecting Piketty's general criticism away from Mr. Gates personally. I don't see how you generalized this.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#397
i think what gates is ultimately saying is that "good" wealth (gates's main concern, since he's rather invested in the topic) has a potentially higher multiplier effect than bad (wealth solely used for consumption).

so in his example, investors and philanthropists have more volatility around the potential effects of their wealth, so the multiplier can be >1, key is that it can be >1, which means that it can be value generating. consumers' multipliers are necessarily as an aside, i'm also intrigued by the idea of economic velocity as an indicator of economic health (as opposed to the gini coefficient, which is a rather static measure) that's tangentially related to the idea of economic inequality. of course, for capital to have a stabilizing effect on the economy, it needs to have a high dispersion coefficient, but that's another discussion.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#398
post #79

Gates, and Piketty, would benefit from considering the insights of the Austrian school of economics, instead of accepting then regurgitating Marx & Engels with a veneer of civilized discourse. Neither seems to have read a single page of Ludwig von Mises or Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk. Piketty certainly quotes Marx ad nauseam. George Reisman has offered a thorough critique [1] of Piketty's arguments -- arguing across a rang…

Thanks, that's a much more interesting review than Bill Gates'.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you take that wealth and move it to the average person. Wealth redistribution doesn't necessarily mean taking money/wealth, literally, from wealthy and giving it away to poor. It includes, among others, subsidized education, free access to basic health care, nutritious food, potable water, eradication of epidemics, decent housing, decent retirement income and so on. This is the problem I see in societies that ar…

Eloquently put and very true. Agree on the point about India. Similar thing has recently happened in Australia where Abbott seems to be a stooge of Rupert Murdoch and few other big corporations - and his position as PM seems to be purely ceremonial. As always, the classic talk by Lawrence Lessig [1] makes a really passionate plea to reverse this trend. [1] http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_t.…

Thanks for the link! Very sharp and cuts to the chase.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#400
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I'm really not seeing why anyone should be entitled to never work again simply because their parents made a lot of money. Because, their parents earned it. People slog their bones off, make a lot of sacrifices and after a life time of work get to such a position. If some body's parents doesn't want to leave a inheritance, or don't to earn or whatever. I would leave that at calling it as their personal decision. >>I…

You answered your own second statement. Their PARENTS earned it. Not the kids. That's my entire point- I don't think children should be entitled to assets their parents "slogged their bones off for" simply because they won the lottery of being born with those parents. You disagree and that's fine, I was merely presenting the other side of this debate (and the one I personally sit on the side of).

Investments work by building on top of something you earned in the past and so on.

If there is no incentive to get rich, or benefit by making money over a long term for you or your descendants the very motivation to contribute something valuable and make money along the way, goes away. So after a time you will be left wondering why a few capable people aren't sacrificing their lives making up for every body else.

Welcome to Soviet Russia!

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