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Why Inequality Matters

gatesnotes.com

301–310 of 462 posts

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't speak for everyone. Personally I think the idea that we need wealth concentration at all is bogus. Investment is already performed by teams of skilled experts on behalf of the wealthy. We don't need individuals who simply perform the function of owning things and reaping the benefits for literally doing nothing. There are better ways we could be allocating capital. We also don't need wealth concentration to enc…

You write as if no one has ever tried different ways of allocating capital. The 20th century is replete with examples of such "better" ways of allocating capital that failed spectacularly (often with considerable bloodshed).

No, it is full of examples of groups that established themselves as the new elites and continued maintaining the same type of semi-feudal systems they replaced.

Many of them used rhetoric about redistribution to placate the masses, yes. But there was little different but names in the methods for allocating capital in Czarist Russia and the Soviet Union: The decisions were in both cases taken by a privileged elite insulated from the effects of their decisions.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#302
post #10

I must say Bill Gates, in his post Microsoft avatar, continues to surprise me constantly. This is a refreshingly candid and sanguine review of Piketty's book from someone who was a ruthless capitalist not so long ago. Gates rightly (and self-servingly) also points out that Piketty does not consider philanthropy as a means to correct some of capitalism's imbalances. Here's a few of Gates' conclusions: > Piketty is rig…

I strongly disagree with this conclusion and I believe it not-so-subtly implies we should use the tax code as a form of moralization. What about all the people who make the super-yatchs for the wealthy. Or the all the contractors employed to make the luxury towers in downtowns across the world. Tens of thousands if not millions of people directly gain (and likely from the middle and lower classes) from the spending o…

Economics reallocates resources to humans as surely as the hydrological cycle reallocates water to lakes and rivers.

Cash flows. It circulates. And as long as it keeps moving, there is usually enough for everybody.

Wealth inequality is like a small group of people continually siphoning water into bottomless private cisterns. Eventually, the rest of the world becomes a desert. The problem isn't that the cisterns exist, it's that the water flowing out is nowhere near the amount flowing in.

I see the problem as too much lending and investing and not enough spending among the wealthy. It's like demanding that the people whom you charge to drink your water can only piss in your toilets. When you spend the money, you give up control over what happens to it next, and that is what allows the next guy to spend it freely. When you lend or invest, that next guy still owes you. No businesses can afford to cater to him, because the money he has isn't really his.

That's why the lavish spender is not the problem. When he eats a $500 steak, that money goes out to support servers and busboys and chefs and butchers and cattle ranchers. And it goes from them to television actors and book authors and electricity workers and personal trainers and dog walkers and auto mechanics. The cash flows. It circulates.

With the guy that buys a 50% stake in the restaurant with his cash, without providing any actual competitive advantage to the business, that money doesn't actually help anyone unless the previous owner can improve the business with it. Except now he has half as much incentive to do so. All those people down the chain only earn money if the restaurant can sell more steaks. If putting your name on the front door doesn't convince more people to walk through it, buying part of the business is not benefiting anyone except the new part-owner.

That's why I oppose both consumption taxes and income taxes. Both discourage the free flow of cash through the economy.

A tax based on the increase in one's personal wealth would be far more useful. It discourages only excessive hoarding. Philanthropy that yields control of the cash is the best, as the services and goods obtained don't even count against your own balance sheet.

The big spender is actually the good guy, provided that he is still able to spend as much as he earns. That's the real job creator. His willingness to spend money is what makes people want to sell him goods and services. If he only invests, those businesses still need to find actual customers who are willing to spend their money.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#303
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with differentiating between the "good investor" and the "lavish lifestyle guy" is that the good investor is actually the one that you (rather, Piketty) need to be most worried about. Disagree. The good investor not only puts capital to work and creates wealth for others, he is also taking money out of the system. Since he is not consuming, the net effect of his increased capital hoard is to decrease pr…

You completely ignore the whole argument for why the "good investor" is dangerous: He accumulates, and by accumulating he enables far more substantial interference with the democratic process.

I tend to think excessive consumption and mal-investment is worst for society. Also, the bar for bribing is not particularly high, so even the lavish spender could do damage that way. Lastly, a spender is probably more likely to do these kinds of political contributions.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#304
From the comments on the site: >>>A poor person, will spend all his income on consumption of food, clothes, water and all the basic things that he can pay.

>>>A rich person, will only spend a small fraction of it's income, so in the end, proportionally, poor people end paying more taxes then rich people, and that's actually something that's hurting poor people here.

^^^This seems to actually be a sensible argument for there being a problem with a simple flat consumption tax.

A solution might be to have a progressive tax on consumption which becomes more meaningful when levels of spending on consumption reaches a level beyond that of the lower 33% of the populace or something like this. The problem would be figuring out how to apply this tax since it couldn't be done through the sales tax as it currently exists.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#305

Philanthropy strikes me as anti-democratic. Why should the rich get to choose which causes are more deserving of their generosity? Let the elected government pool the money and make this determination.

Really? You think we should restrict how people can give their money away? If you are going to go that far, why not restrict how people can spend their money also (because why should rich people, or people in general, be able to decide what kind of businesses are more deserving of their money).

In fact, why have money at all, lets just let the government take care of everyone and not let anyone own businesses or property or anything. Oh wait, because this is a horrible idea and removes a main motivation for people to actually work and contribute to society. What you are suggesting is communism, not democracy.

Democracy doesn't mean that people can't choose to do what they want to do with their money. It just means that the government representing the people has been elected by the people (at least in a representative democracy, like the United States). It doesn't mean that the government should make all the decisions for everyone or control how they spend their money.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#306
post #10

I must say Bill Gates, in his post Microsoft avatar, continues to surprise me constantly. This is a refreshingly candid and sanguine review of Piketty's book from someone who was a ruthless capitalist not so long ago. Gates rightly (and self-servingly) also points out that Piketty does not consider philanthropy as a means to correct some of capitalism's imbalances. Here's a few of Gates' conclusions: > Piketty is rig…

The problem with differentiating between the "good investor" and the "lavish lifestyle guy" is that the good investor is actually the one that you (rather, Piketty) need to be most worried about. People worried about inequality aren't (just) worried about the morality of consumption -- a fat cat sitting atop a mountain of cash drinking champagne and eating caviar while the peasants starve. They're worried about maint…

Replace "wealth" with "intelligence", "attractiveness" or even "physical strength", and you get similar threats. Big, strong people could hurt us at any time, and "it's only through their continuing mercy that they haven't"; intelligent people could manipulate or persuade us, while attractive people could seduce us for their own benefit. And yet, we still let people go to the gym to work out and go to school and read books, even encourage them in most cases.

I find this idea of "disarming" rich people for "the safety of us all" to be itself highly dangerous, and a slippery slope. People should be punished according to the law for the illegal things they have done, not the things they could do.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gates is still blind to an important point- he came from a middle-class background Gates didn't come from a middle-class background but from an upper-class one. His father was a highly successful lawyer and cofounder of Shidler & King (then Preston Gates & Ellis, now K&L Gates), his maternal grandfather was an affluent banker (national bank president) and his mother was a Seattle power serving on the boards of Unit…

That sounds pretty middle class to me. Professional people - lawyers, bankers, management, etc. The US doesn't really have an upper class at all - just lots of rich middle class people. Maybe it's a British thing, but to me class is only minimally about money, so you can't just say the Gates family are rich so they're upper class. In Britain you can be penniless but still be upper class, or a billionaire but still wo…

> That sounds pretty middle class to me. Professional people - lawyers, bankers, management, etc.

Professional people (as people who are predominantly workers, but usually not on living paycheck-to-paycheck and often with small capital holdings that may suffice for a comfortable retirement) are general middle class, yes.

> The US doesn't really have an upper class at all

The US actually does have an upper class, people who are primarily capitalists rather than workers.

> In Britain you can be penniless but still be upper class, or a billionaire but still working class.

You seem to be describing a pre-capitalist, essentially feudal view of class (in a capitalist society, meaningful class distinctions still aren't exactly about money, per se, but more where that money comes from, though there's a relation between the two -- you can't be penniless and be maintaining a comfortable standard of living primarily from capital -- whereas in a feudal class system its more about station of birth independent of money, though, in societies where such a class distinction is meaningful rather than a mere historical artifact, there's a close association between that station and both money and how you get it.)

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#308
post #10

I must say Bill Gates, in his post Microsoft avatar, continues to surprise me constantly. This is a refreshingly candid and sanguine review of Piketty's book from someone who was a ruthless capitalist not so long ago. Gates rightly (and self-servingly) also points out that Piketty does not consider philanthropy as a means to correct some of capitalism's imbalances. Here's a few of Gates' conclusions: > Piketty is rig…

It's interesting to look at first sons if you have a long family tree. For me first sons of first settler's lineage... governors of NY and CT in the civil war era.

Down less fortunate birth (from same initial ancestor) fighting in the civil war as a conscript.

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#309

I appreciate Gates' analysis of Piketty, but Gates is still blind to an important point- he came from a middle-class background and therefore had enough capital to gain a footing in the world and to be able to write his initial code without worrying about the basic needs of survival. 40% of youth in the USA today do not even have that, and as such, have virtually no chance at all of being able to even play in the cap…

You paint the most damning portrait of America I've ever heard, can you help flesh this out? Can you source your 40% figure? The only child poverty number I found is 21.8% for 2012. [1] For those in poverty, can you provide more insight to why you think they have "virtually no chance at all of being able to even play in the capitalist economy"? I think everyone would agree they are at a disadvantage, but there are se…

There are rare exceptions. Perhaps HN should do a poll, how many here started out in poverty?

> who fill their eyes

My presumption is that he is referring to the movement towards digital/virtual consumption and away from physical consumption. The rich and poor entertain themselves in much the same way now, but that doesn't give us a way out of the trend:

http://rick.bookstaber.com/2013/11/live-to-eat-eat-to-live.h...

Maybe poor kids will have more access to tools now, but will those tools be relevant in their economic age? Musicians and artists have had all these amazing tools - but is anyone making a living off of them?

Re: Why Inequality Matters

#310
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with differentiating between the "good investor" and the "lavish lifestyle guy" is that the good investor is actually the one that you (rather, Piketty) need to be most worried about. People worried about inequality aren't (just) worried about the morality of consumption -- a fat cat sitting atop a mountain of cash drinking champagne and eating caviar while the peasants starve. They're worried about maint…

What about the common libertarian viewpoint that we should limit the scope of government so that the rich guys don't have any significant political power to hijack? This comes without the slowing of economic growth that would be caused by higher taxes on capital.

Exactly. We only care about who controls Washington because the gov't has such a huge say over our lives. People claim to want less power in the hands of well connected companies and lobbyists. Then they claim they want government to keep them safe from highly unpredictable events, mandate the minimum and maximum amount of money people should get, provide good healthcare to everyone, prevent kids from being bullied at school, make sure everyone's internet is fast but not faster for one site than another, make sure my french fries only contain "good" fats, allow only certain vices like alcohol but not others like some drugs, etc.

Well of course a government that attempts to do all that will be very powerful. And, of course people will spend large amounts of resources to influence a government with that level of power.

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