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The Great Robocoin Rip-off: How We Lost $25,000 Buying a Robocoin ATM

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Re: The Great Robocoin Rip-off: How We Lost $25,000 Buying a Robocoin ATM

#81

Post by wpietri »

jmathai wrote: post #30

Absolutely terrible. I have the feeling that Jordan knows exactly what he's doing. The amount of $20,000 is a lot but it's not that much once you start to hire lawyers and file a suit or go into arbitration. Sounds like he's stringing them along waiting to see how much more cash they're willing to invest to recoup that $20,000. Even worse Jordan might be setting himself up for a settlement of less than $20,000 where…

> I have the feeling that Jordan knows exactly what he's doing.

Not to excuse him, but this sounds exactly like a business noob who doesn't know what he's doing. He started on dreams and bluster, somehow got people to send him lots of money up front, and now is discovering that starting a company is actually hard.

The first test most businesses face is being able to talk a good line. But that's not the last test, so it's pretty easy for fast talkers with no real skills to get in over their heads. And I think they really don't know what idiots they are, because they've grown up being able to talk their way out of their problems. Turns out actual customers (and the Reddit rabble) are not as forgiving as their moms.

Re: The Great Robocoin Rip-off: How We Lost $25,000 Buying a Robocoin ATM

#82

Post by smm2000 »

nikcub wrote: post #36

If you're wondering how you should do these types of transactions without putting cash up front, the field is called trade finance. Call your bank - most of them have a trade finance desk, or Google the term. A slightly cheaper way of doing it is to have a lawyer draft a terms of trade or supply agreement with either the funds in escrow with the firm or a bank guarantee. Having your bank finance the trade is worthwhi…

The reality is that $25k contract is a very small one and nobody will do bank finance on a one off deal like that. If they bought 20+ ATMs it would have been different but not for one.

Re: The Great Robocoin Rip-off: How We Lost $25,000 Buying a Robocoin ATM

#83

Post by smileysteve »

This type of experience is why I don't understand "No Chargeback" or "Replace the credit card" type marketing.

If I purchase this with my credit card and don't get the product before the price goes down, I have the option to cancel the order or get the lower price. If the product gets stuck in RMA or support is not as promised, I can chargeback.

The 'advantage' of bitcoin is that now I have to deal directly with the vendor, who is not my advocate.

Re: The Great Robocoin Rip-off: How We Lost $25,000 Buying a Robocoin ATM

#84

Post by nikcub »

wsxcde wrote: post #64
nikcub wrote: post #36

If you're wondering how you should do these types of transactions without putting cash up front, the field is called trade finance. Call your bank - most of them have a trade finance desk, or Google the term. A slightly cheaper way of doing it is to have a lawyer draft a terms of trade or supply agreement with either the funds in escrow with the firm or a bank guarantee. Having your bank finance the trade is worthwhi…

>There is a huge opportunity in cutting the costs and fees associated with trade finance with bitcoin. Why is there an opportunity with bitcoin? Aren't the costs and fees paying for the legal agreements, risk management, arbitration and things like that? Bitcoin might possibly reduce the cost of moving the dollars around but I suspect this is a very small fraction of the cost of this type of service.

Trade finance isn't a transparent market. The costs are higher because the way it works atm is you work with your favorite bank or call 2 or 3 others. There is no real price discovery. There are also high costs in settlement, and a barrier of entry for financing that wouldn't have to exist if you could sell tranches in a distributed way online - similar to kickstarter.

An m-of-n transaction with a decent and trusted intermediary (or multiple less trusted intermediaries) could also replace bank guarantees, which is the simplest form of trade finance. There are also other opportunities in using bitcoin as proof of ownership or proof that you hold a product.

Re: The Great Robocoin Rip-off: How We Lost $25,000 Buying a Robocoin ATM

#85

Post by rasz_pl »

jmathai wrote: post #30

Absolutely terrible. I have the feeling that Jordan knows exactly what he's doing. The amount of $20,000 is a lot but it's not that much once you start to hire lawyers and file a suit or go into arbitration. Sounds like he's stringing them along waiting to see how much more cash they're willing to invest to recoup that $20,000. Even worse Jordan might be setting himself up for a settlement of less than $20,000 where…

> Jordan's got the upper hand here.

Not if someone breaks his hand first with a baseball bat.

Re: The Great Robocoin Rip-off: How We Lost $25,000 Buying a Robocoin ATM

#86

Post by nikcub »

marklittlewood wrote: post #66
nikcub wrote: post #36

If you're wondering how you should do these types of transactions without putting cash up front, the field is called trade finance. Call your bank - most of them have a trade finance desk, or Google the term. A slightly cheaper way of doing it is to have a lawyer draft a terms of trade or supply agreement with either the funds in escrow with the firm or a bank guarantee. Having your bank finance the trade is worthwhi…

Like a bank is going to offer trade finance on this?!? Seriously. That should be clue enough.

Not sure what gives you an impression that there is some minimum amount for a trade finance deal. Bank guarantees are a form of trade finance, and you have other simple instruments. A google search brings up 2 or 3 providers who would do an online quote for amounts starting at $10k.

Structured trade finance is a whole other matter, that is where you have bespoke instruments and teams working on deals - usually with businesses that see $50M+ p.a in deal flow.

In either case I mentioned in my post that having a lawyer do a terms of trade or supply agreement is cheaper at the low end.

Re: The Great Robocoin Rip-off: How We Lost $25,000 Buying a Robocoin ATM

#88

Post by kyledrake »

I've helped work on Project Skyhook, which is a $1000 Bitcoin ATM: http://projectskyhook.com

Orders ship within 2-3 weeks. Shipping to Canada is no problem, customs is no problem. Assembly is in Portland, Oregon, so it's a quick ship to Vancouver. We've shipped hundreds of units.

Setup is completely on the owner's end. Owners don't need the company to configure the unit, and the company doesn't need to run servers for them. Skyhook ATMs use blockchain.com for the wallets (using accounts the owner creates independently), and the exchange price source is the owner's choice, all controlled through the interface. This isn't to avoid having a setup phase - it's to allow owners to have complete control over their money, because then it's a trustless system (the source code to the ATMs is open and auditable: https://github.com/projectskyhook).

I'm astounded at the prices on some of these ATMs. For $25,000 they could have ordered 24 Skyhooks (a little padding for shipping, which I believe can be palleted to save money). Bitcoin ATMs shouldn't cost the down payment on a house, IMHO.

Skyhook is also completely bootstrapped by the founders (no VCs) and a result of that (and careful burn rate management) is now profitable, despite the low price point. The cofounders have been using some of the money (and their free time) to help clean up and build out a new hacker/makerspace in Portland that's going to be awesome. Easily the best group of people I've ever had the privilege to work with.

I wish more people approached startups this way. There's a real pride to making companies on your terms that you control, and succeeding at it. Startups shouldn't be about overvaluing your company and having Kid Rock do a rock concert in your back yard.

Re: The Great Robocoin Rip-off: How We Lost $25,000 Buying a Robocoin ATM

#89

Post by aleem »

aleem wrote: post #39

Jordan Kelley has posted his response on Reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_ro... Judging from the replies, it seems to have backfired probably because he did not acknowledge the errors on his side (shipping a lemon, unresponsive over email and not having provided a refund yet). Worse, he doesn't seem to realise that the name-and-shame was a result of his and ultimately RoboCoin's action…

Jordan Kelley has since deleted his original response but you can still view it at http://i.imgur.com/WXyGPM3.png

Re: The Great Robocoin Rip-off: How We Lost $25,000 Buying a Robocoin ATM

#90

Post by hatty »

aleem wrote: post #39

Jordan Kelley has posted his response on Reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_ro... Judging from the replies, it seems to have backfired probably because he did not acknowledge the errors on his side (shipping a lemon, unresponsive over email and not having provided a refund yet). Worse, he doesn't seem to realise that the name-and-shame was a result of his and ultimately RoboCoin's action…

Jordan provided his email on the reddit comment (jordan@robocoin.com) and encouraged people to contact him if they want to engage further.

After spending so much time reading the materials and forming an opinion, I emailed him. I suspect he thought not many people would actually email.

I'll make sure to comment if I get more details beyond these materials or even get a response.

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