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When the Guy Making Your Sandwich Has a Noncompete Clause

nytimes.com

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Re: When the Guy Making Your Sandwich Has a Noncompete Clause

#61

Post by VLM »

bsbechtel wrote: post #59
pyrocat wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're very out of touch with the life of a minimum wage worker. I'm not sure what I can do to fix that, but maybe just step back and think about who you're defending and why.

What do you do for a living? I run a business that competes with fast food franchises for low wage labor. A great majority of our employees aren't poor, or struggling to get by, but college kids who are looking to make a little extra cash and get some work experience. A small handful are children of parents who have millions in the bank, and have no need to work other than it's something to do, and maybe to gain some…

That is an interesting anecdote about hiring trust fund babies on Manhattan Island or the equivalent on the west coast, but the fraction of the population operating under similar circumstances is extremely small and thus not very applicable to a nationwide discussion.

Re: When the Guy Making Your Sandwich Has a Noncompete Clause

#62

Post by frankc »

pyrocat wrote: post #12
bsbechtel wrote: post #6

The article has a pretty obvious slant in one direction. A lot of times small businesses will require this of their entry level workers not because they are afraid of their workers going to a competitor, but don't want their employees to go and start a competing business, which in the small business world is a very real risk. It costs much less to start a small business, and in the local market many of these small bu…

"It costs much less to start a small business" Ok, I'll bite. In what way does starting a small business "cost less"? Less than what? Have you ever tried to get a loan to start a retail restaurant? It's incredibly difficult to get the funding necessary, especially in an industry with such low margins.

The real threat is not that fast-food worked gets job at Jimmy Johns, decides sandwich business is great, decides to open competitor.

The threat is potential competitor decides he want to open sandwich shop. Already has the capital in place, doesn't have the experience. Decided to get a job at Jimmy Johns to learn how they operate. I have no idea why people dismiss this like it's crazy. If you were already set on opening a hamburger shop/chain, you wouldn't stand a couple of months at minimum wage at McDonalds to see how a successful McDonalds franchise operates?

Re: When the Guy Making Your Sandwich Has a Noncompete Clause

#63

Post by tptacek »

frankc wrote: post #56
tptacek wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am confused by what appears to be an assertion that Jimmy John's has a legitimate concern that their minimum-wage-earning food service employees might leave to start a competing national sandwich chain.

Of course the vast majority of them are no threat, but you should not assume every fast food employee is in it for the pay. If you are committed to opening a hamburger shop, you go and get a job at a hamburger shop for a few months to get some experience, see how they operate, maybe even pick up some ideas in terms of recipes, though usually its more learning the operations rather than stealing recipes. I know for a…

Once again: this isn't an argument. Taco truck owners could also rationally want to demand that their employees work for Taco Bux instead of dollars. But they can't, because neither the law nor human decency recognizes the validity of that exchange. And so too it is with noncompetes. The relationship a Jimmy Johns retail employee has with their company will inevitably fail to satisfy the requirements for an enforceable noncompete. In particular: minimum- and near-minimum- wage employees by definition haven't been given consideration in exchange for agreeing not to compete, and have neither privileged access to a rolodex of customers nor access to trade secrets.

My opinion is that Jimmy Johns is in fact not concerned that their employes will start competing firms. Rather, they'd like to minimize employee turnover, which, unlike local sandwich business starts, is a metric they actually probably do track. And one vehicle they've found for minimizing turnover is in tricking their employees into believing they have fewer alternative jobs available than they actually do.

Re: When the Guy Making Your Sandwich Has a Noncompete Clause

#64

Post by pyrocat »

bsbechtel wrote: post #59
pyrocat wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're very out of touch with the life of a minimum wage worker. I'm not sure what I can do to fix that, but maybe just step back and think about who you're defending and why.

What do you do for a living? I run a business that competes with fast food franchises for low wage labor. A great majority of our employees aren't poor, or struggling to get by, but college kids who are looking to make a little extra cash and get some work experience. A small handful are children of parents who have millions in the bank, and have no need to work other than it's something to do, and maybe to gain some…

> A great majority of our employees aren't poor, or struggling to get by, but college kids who are looking to make a little extra cash and get some work experience.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/08/08/2433601/fast-foo...

Re: When the Guy Making Your Sandwich Has a Noncompete Clause

#65

Post by pyrocat »

bsbechtel wrote: post #59
pyrocat wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're very out of touch with the life of a minimum wage worker. I'm not sure what I can do to fix that, but maybe just step back and think about who you're defending and why.

What do you do for a living? I run a business that competes with fast food franchises for low wage labor. A great majority of our employees aren't poor, or struggling to get by, but college kids who are looking to make a little extra cash and get some work experience. A small handful are children of parents who have millions in the bank, and have no need to work other than it's something to do, and maybe to gain some…

> However, generalizing the skill set and struggles of a few to an entire wage class of labor is absurd

You mean like you did earlier in your post? I backed my claims up with data, you backed yours up with an anecdote about trust fund babies and college kids.

Re: When the Guy Making Your Sandwich Has a Noncompete Clause

#66

Post by frankc »

pyrocat wrote: post #30
bsbechtel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retail fast food restaurant - All these businesses can be started with either 1) personal savings, 2) a family and friends loan, or 3) credit cards. They all also have the advantage of generating cash from day 1, vs a tech startup which can have substantial development time.

You're very out of touch with the life of a minimum wage worker. I'm not sure what I can do to fix that, but maybe just step back and think about who you're defending and why.

Why do you think that Jimmy Johns is concerned with the life of an average minimum wage worker? Perhaps they are concerned with the outliers and are happy to saddle the average workers with a non-compete just the same. The lack of insight in this thread is shocking. No one said the policy is fair or justified. The point is to think through why they might have the policy in the first place and people seem to be too outraged to do that. It's disappointing, really.

Re: When the Guy Making Your Sandwich Has a Noncompete Clause

#67

Post by jrokisky »

jessaustin wrote: post #42
nhangen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing they don't want to spend time training people only to have them leave for another shop. I wonder if there is a limit on this clause?

Maybe I'm a clueless jackass, but I've made sandwiches before, and I've seen sandwiches made in sandwich shops before, and I can't imagine this "training" taking longer than a shift. The training that isn't directly related to sandwiches, e.g. how to stock the cooler and where the dumpster is located, is likely to vary from shop to shop. Most hiring shop managers are going to look more closely at how long one has hel…

I worked at a Jimmy Johns for a few months. They make the sandwiches in a very specific way to optimize for speed. The average time between order and handoff to a customer was about a minute during busy times.

Re: When the Guy Making Your Sandwich Has a Noncompete Clause

#68

Post by moron4hire »

bsbechtel wrote: post #6

The article has a pretty obvious slant in one direction. A lot of times small businesses will require this of their entry level workers not because they are afraid of their workers going to a competitor, but don't want their employees to go and start a competing business, which in the small business world is a very real risk. It costs much less to start a small business, and in the local market many of these small bu…

That's assuming there are innovative ways to run a fucking sandwich shop.

Re: When the Guy Making Your Sandwich Has a Noncompete Clause

#69

Post by x0x0 »

VLM wrote: post #60
x0x0 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's often the next employer that is intimidated into not hiring you. So the poor person gets fucked.

Most employers don't waste time on references given the legal liabilities, references are only required as a tradition, to prove you know how to play the game, so I think they're safe... with the sole exception of the camp counselor. Given contact with kids, I'd like to at least imagine they would try to background check. Even then they probably don't and rely on 3rd party professionals. You have to be realistic abou…

Your response is amazing.

Step 1 -- Let's ignore reality (low end jobs are not primarily teens anymore [1]); the actual quoted experience in the article

Step 2 -- now firmly in our fantasy land, this nasty action of employers definitely isn't a problem!

Step 3 -- therefore, nasty action isn't a problem!

Step 4 -- The aristocrats.

[1] http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/08/08/2433601/fast-foo...

Re: When the Guy Making Your Sandwich Has a Noncompete Clause

#70

Post by moron4hire »

frankc wrote: post #62
pyrocat wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It costs much less to start a small business" Ok, I'll bite. In what way does starting a small business "cost less"? Less than what? Have you ever tried to get a loan to start a retail restaurant? It's incredibly difficult to get the funding necessary, especially in an industry with such low margins.

The real threat is not that fast-food worked gets job at Jimmy Johns, decides sandwich business is great, decides to open competitor. The threat is potential competitor decides he want to open sandwich shop. Already has the capital in place, doesn't have the experience. Decided to get a job at Jimmy Johns to learn how they operate. I have no idea why people dismiss this like it's crazy. If you were already set on ope…

Who are these people who didn't already have this experience as teenagers? Who are these people who can't figure out basic, logical layout and workflow?
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