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When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

nautil.us

31–40 of 52 posts

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#31
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we were to just go along with it and categorize life as personal property, a murderer does not take the victim’s life into their possession in any way I can tell. That never stopped copyright holders from calling infringement "theft".

If the copyright holder is deprived of resources they otherwise would have received due to the infringement, it is indeed "theft". It wasn't until it could easily be done on a wide scale that such infringement was a real concern.

That's not how it's seen legally. Dowling explicitly made clear the distinction between theft and infringement. No taking with intent to deprive == No theft. Copyright is unique in that there's no "taking" when you copy something.

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#32
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we were to just go along with it and categorize life as personal property, a murderer does not take the victim’s life into their possession in any way I can tell. That never stopped copyright holders from calling infringement "theft".

If the copyright holder is deprived of resources they otherwise would have received due to the infringement, it is indeed "theft". It wasn't until it could easily be done on a wide scale that such infringement was a real concern.

Are you sure you've read the thread, or did you just jumped at a perceived criticism of copyright holders?

My point was that if copyright infringement can be considered "theft", then surely so can murder. I'm pretty sure a murdered person is also deprived of resources. Like "years of life".

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#33

This article could use some nice infographics and charts. The way it is written makes it hard to see exactly how things have changed over time.

Agreed. What I would really love to see is whether a "historical economist" (or whatever those are called) could estimate the statistical value of a human life as defined by people's own revealed preferences. This is the sort of calculation where we infer how much each of us values our own lives based on the amount we are willing to pay to avoid small chances of death. In the US today, the number is about $8 million…

>> The OP article gives the misleading impression that society's changing values are mostly due to moral progress ... But it's almost certainly the case that you can explain the vast majority of the change by economic developments

Not to refute your point, but there is a further interesting dynamic described in the article: feedback. English legal practice is based on precedent in common law. There is a ratchet effect whereby past rulings influence: subsequent rulings; behaviour (morality) of citizens; perhaps too, laws subsequently enacted by those citizens' elected leaders.

I suspect the OP, who is connected to the Santa Fe institute, is interested in exploring such an emergent system.

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#34
post #15

400 years ago justice systems were based on the desires of the crown and aristocracy and the needs of the aristocracy demanded they be able to buy their way out of murdering common folk but have their precious wealth protected at all costs. Murder of the ruling class was, obvs a different story [1]. Among other things the strengthening of the middle class is what slowly, reverses this. [1] http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~…

i've only read a bit of foucault but one of his fascinating expositions is the mechanisms of discipline that run through us unconsciously (i've heard it termed micropower). it's tangentially related to the panopticon, which is what many people think of in relation to foucault. foucault makes claims that normative forces (micropower) are more powerful than direct coersion. micropower breaks down when individuals start…

[deleted]

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#35
post #19
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. A life is not property. It cannot be acquired or given away. Even if we were to just go along with it and categorize life as personal property, a murderer does not take the victim’s life into their possession in any way I can tell. Murder ends life rather than appropriating it, so murder would be destruction of property, not theft.

>Not really. A life is not property. Life of other sentient beings, like dogs or apes, still considered a property. Wrongly so of course. >It cannot be acquired or given away. only for about next 20 or so years until upload and cloned bodies become accessible. The killer (or his insurance) will have to cover repairs or replacement cost in case of "total", and be charged with intentional property destruction if it was…

> 20 or so years until upload and cloned bodies become accessible

That's an... optimistic time frame.

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#36

It is depressing, but perhaps expected, that an article about a quantitative approach to historical analysis includes one anecdote and no additional data. I was able to dig up this paper: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/26/9419.full which is sufficiently dense to require some time to read and consider.

Looks to me like nautil.us is aiming at a general readership that is interested in science. Many articles like this gloss over the numbers in favor of narrative and anecdotes, because that's what's interesting to general readership. The provides plenty of opportunity to delve deeper by seeking out the source material, as you have done. There's many people, myself included who you could send the original paper and I'd…

But that doesn't fully explain it. There are other popular sites that do include charts and graphs. (Take Vox, Priceonomics, or FiveThirtyEight.) Perhaps this is a deliberate choice of the Nautil.us editors to appear more literary?

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#37
post #15

400 years ago justice systems were based on the desires of the crown and aristocracy and the needs of the aristocracy demanded they be able to buy their way out of murdering common folk but have their precious wealth protected at all costs. Murder of the ruling class was, obvs a different story [1]. Among other things the strengthening of the middle class is what slowly, reverses this. [1] http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~…

Okay, okay, okay. No no. I did my dissertation on these exact same documents working with these same people.

This is NOT about upholding a class-based system. The elite could not and did not buy their way out of anything any more than a base criminal could. A wealthy elite may be able to hide a crime more effectively, but once the crime was known it was extraordinarily important for the elite to be seen as fair arbiters. Here's the deal: the elite knew that they were ruling with the consent of the lower orders (classes don't come in as a useful classification tool until the rise of the Bourgeoisie), so they were concerned to preserve their status as the dispensers of justice. This meant that in many ways an elite charged with a crime would be held to a higher standard than your typical commoner and the punishment may be more aggravated.

Check out the case of the Earl Ferrers. He's a great example of an elite figure facing the same punishment as everyone else.

(to expand on your Foucault example: an attempted murder of the king is not the same as an attempted murder of a nobleman. The king was considered God's representative on Earth. Foucault's point, in any case, was about the aggravated nature of the punishment.)

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#38
So, I did my dissertation on these documents working with these same people. I don't really have an argument with Dedeo's argument. Now, my work was mostly qualitative (I tried to infer meaning from the text) than quantitative, but my work relied heavily on quantitative underpinnings. The only argument I have is with the title. In 17th, 18th, 19th century England thievery is never considered worse than murder. Ever. That doesn't mean that people weren't executed for it, but it's usually under what we would call "aggravating circumstances". So, a woman who stole something might be pardoned, sent to the workhouse, or "transported"-- that is, sent overseas. In fact, if you were a young and fertile woman you had a better shot at getting out of trouble-- and the women knew it.

Were people executed for property crimes? Sure they were, but the property crime could have very well been the precipitating legal event, not necessarily the larger "social" crime that the person committed. What do I mean? Well, juries were often a group of men impaneled to sit in on trials throughout the course of a day. They sometimes knew the defendant, sometimes not. During trials, a defendant might call character witnesses to his or her defense. The prosecution might call character witnesses to the character witnesses, and on and on (though usually this was more effort than anyone put in). Character witnesses mattered a lot, because it showed that you were viewed as respectable and therefore clearly not guilty (strains of Calvinism here). If a nobleman stood for you then your chances were pretty good. Now, if no one stood for you, or if people came in to defame you for the prosecution, that showed that you were a transgressive individual. As a transgressor you might very likely be worthy of death. It's notable that a lot of folks who were executed in the 17th and 18th centuries would confess to their crimes on the gallows. And even if they did not confess to the crime for which they were charged, many would admit that they deserved the punishment for other acts they committed. So, judgment in a criminal court case is often the judgment of a person's whole life.

Now, execution was the basic form of punishment in this era because the options are execution, occasionally a workhouse, transportation, the stocks, and ... that's about it. Jail (gaol) was only a place to hold people until they were ready for trial. No one stayed there long term. Okay, well more gradation is needed for punishments. If a man kills another man in a fight then he may deserve to die, but he may simply die by hanging. His end may be gruesome, but if he's viewed as a decent fellow who made a mistake then the hangman may give him a "drop" that actually breaks his neck or the crowd may gather around to pull his body down and thus speed his death. The woman who murders her husband in cold blood was often strangled and then her dead body was burned at the stake. A premeditated murder could see the dead body quartered and hung up in his or her's hometown. The important thing here is what happens to the body after it's dead.

Dedeo's point about the changing nature of society and the role of violence therein is correct. I don't buy Pinker's argument, really, but what Dedeo describes here reflects an accurate understanding of the changes in the English justice system.

A few things worthwhile to know:

* Foucault is the starting point for studying crime, but he's just that, a starting point. His general conclusions are so-so, but he asked really important questions. Anyone who relies on the work of Foucault as a theoretical basis ends up having to expand it to make sure they can derive meaning according to the situation their research is examining.

* We can't talk about class at this point, because this is not a society organized by its relationship to the means of production. We can talk, however, about social orders. There's a lot of gradation and variation on this, but you have a very small elite group and a very large group of commoners. The elite are responsible for justice and protection. The commoners cooperate in this because they believe that the elite (in a general sense) are upholding their responsibilities to fair justice and providing protection. When they disagree this does break down and the elite knew it.

If you have questions, let me know. I'll be in and out all day.

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#39
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the copyright holder is deprived of resources they otherwise would have received due to the infringement, it is indeed "theft". It wasn't until it could easily be done on a wide scale that such infringement was a real concern.

That's not how it's seen legally. Dowling explicitly made clear the distinction between theft and infringement. No taking with intent to deprive == No theft. Copyright is unique in that there's no "taking" when you copy something.

The laws can vary from area to area, but a number of them do refer to infringement as a form of theft. Any law that refers to the negative impact of the criminal act to the economy is almost certainly speaking of theft. It might not be literally spelled out as theft, but in most cases it is. Heck, in the US there's a law referred to as the Net Act, which stands for No Electronic Theft Act, that literally names it electronic theft even if there is no monetary gain.

EDIT: Which upon reading up on this I'm assuming you mean Dowling vs US from 1985. The Net Act I mentioned was passed in 1997. Plus Dowling is strange, it seems to suggest that copyright infringement isn't theft because the alleged thief didn't steal the actual copyright and didn't deprive the owner of the use of the copyright. The decision didn't seem to have anything to do with the physical materials that were copies, most of which weren't copyrighted to begin with.

The "taking" is not the copying, that's a truly sad defense. The taking is depriving the original owner of the resources due them for the time and resources expended during the creation itself. If they created it then they have the right to dictate terms in how you consume it. If you don't agree to the terms then the proper response is to not consume it, not to copy it outright and make some silly claim that they lost nothing because you made a digital copy so that they still have the original.

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#40
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the copyright holder is deprived of resources they otherwise would have received due to the infringement, it is indeed "theft". It wasn't until it could easily be done on a wide scale that such infringement was a real concern.

Are you sure you've read the thread, or did you just jumped at a perceived criticism of copyright holders? My point was that if copyright infringement can be considered "theft", then surely so can murder. I'm pretty sure a murdered person is also deprived of resources. Like "years of life".

I read the thread and it is not a perceived criticism. It is a real criticism and is a valid point. Some people may disagree with the criticism but that doesn't automatically make it invalid.

Actually in many ways a murder can be considered theft, due to the lost resources that person may have generated within a normal life span that is then deprived from a family member and/or dependent. Usually such matters are handled in civil court. They are called wrongful death suits. Keep in mind, one does not need to be convicted of murder to be held monetarily liable for a person's death. But this type of law varies from area to area so it could be quite different to you than it could be for me.

An easy example of this that has plenty of things to read about are the OJ Simpson cases. Other examples are lawsuits brought against law enforcement agencies for unjustified shootings.

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