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When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

nautil.us

11–20 of 52 posts

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#11
It is depressing, but perhaps expected, that an article about a quantitative approach to historical analysis includes one anecdote and no additional data.

I was able to dig up this paper:

  http://www.pnas.org/content/111/26/9419.full
which is sufficiently dense to require some time to read and consider.

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#13

Murder is theft. The worst kind of theft

Not really. A life is not property. It cannot be acquired or given away. Even if we were to just go along with it and categorize life as personal property, a murderer does not take the victim’s life into their possession in any way I can tell. Murder ends life rather than appropriating it, so murder would be destruction of property, not theft.

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#14
post #7
post #5

If you're interested in the main thesis of this article -- that the reason that our attitudes to violence declined steadily was due to a feedback loop "feeding the output of the Old Bailey the day before to the input of the Old Bailey the day after.", I highly recommend "The Better Angels of our Nature" by Steven Pinker.

I read that book. It was very enlightening to say the least. That being said, my view is in line with the book: cautiously optimistic. I believe that the domestication of mankind will continue, but that isn't inevitable. Maybe in the future, the trend will reverse. It's up to us and our responsibility to ensure that doesn't happen and to accelerate the trend of less violence over time.

My view is that many people are quite domesticated- traditionally, would you not agree that society flourishes wherever the strong and fair have the capacity to exclude the psychopaths?

Unfortunately, domesticated people often somehow get convinced to vote for open borders.

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#15
400 years ago justice systems were based on the desires of the crown and aristocracy and the needs of the aristocracy demanded they be able to buy their way out of murdering common folk but have their precious wealth protected at all costs. Murder of the ruling class was, obvs a different story [1]. Among other things the strengthening of the middle class is what slowly, reverses this.

[1] http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~felluga/punish.html {Opening passage of Foucault's Discipline and Punish, recounting the drawing and quartering of Robert-Francois Damiens for attempted regicide.}

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#16

It is depressing, but perhaps expected, that an article about a quantitative approach to historical analysis includes one anecdote and no additional data. I was able to dig up this paper: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/26/9419.full which is sufficiently dense to require some time to read and consider.

Looks to me like nautil.us is aiming at a general readership that is interested in science. Many articles like this gloss over the numbers in favor of narrative and anecdotes, because that's what's interesting to general readership. The provides plenty of opportunity to delve deeper by seeking out the source material, as you have done.

There's many people, myself included who you could send the original paper and I'd give it a glance and probably leave it. Not because I'm stupid or uneducated, but because I don't even know if its a paper that says something new or relevant to the field or has something to offer me as a person. An article like this makes it much more likely that people will engage the research by giving me some initial sense.

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#17
post #14
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that book. It was very enlightening to say the least. That being said, my view is in line with the book: cautiously optimistic. I believe that the domestication of mankind will continue, but that isn't inevitable. Maybe in the future, the trend will reverse. It's up to us and our responsibility to ensure that doesn't happen and to accelerate the trend of less violence over time.

My view is that many people are quite domesticated- traditionally, would you not agree that society flourishes wherever the strong and fair have the capacity to exclude the psychopaths? Unfortunately, domesticated people often somehow get convinced to vote for open borders.

Borders are only one way to exclude people from society, and not a very efficient one if the only goal is to "exclude the psychopaths", which are no more likely to be on one side of the border than the other.

Or maybe I missed your point?

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#18
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My view is that many people are quite domesticated- traditionally, would you not agree that society flourishes wherever the strong and fair have the capacity to exclude the psychopaths? Unfortunately, domesticated people often somehow get convinced to vote for open borders.

Borders are only one way to exclude people from society, and not a very efficient one if the only goal is to "exclude the psychopaths", which are no more likely to be on one side of the border than the other. Or maybe I missed your point?

qnaal's point, of course, was to derail the interesting conversation HN is trying to have with some meaningless contingent political bullshit. I envy you, that such intent wasn't clear upon reading. Suffice to say, there is a certain class of American political lizard that enjoys pretending there's no problem we can't solve without some more of that good old-fashioned racism. Just downvote and move on.

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#19
post #13

Murder is theft. The worst kind of theft

Not really. A life is not property. It cannot be acquired or given away. Even if we were to just go along with it and categorize life as personal property, a murderer does not take the victim’s life into their possession in any way I can tell. Murder ends life rather than appropriating it, so murder would be destruction of property, not theft.

>Not really. A life is not property.

Life of other sentient beings, like dogs or apes, still considered a property. Wrongly so of course.

>It cannot be acquired or given away.

only for about next 20 or so years until upload and cloned bodies become accessible. The killer (or his insurance) will have to cover repairs or replacement cost in case of "total", and be charged with intentional property destruction if it was intentional.

Re: When Theft Was Worse Than Murder

#20
post #13

Murder is theft. The worst kind of theft

Not really. A life is not property. It cannot be acquired or given away. Even if we were to just go along with it and categorize life as personal property, a murderer does not take the victim’s life into their possession in any way I can tell. Murder ends life rather than appropriating it, so murder would be destruction of property, not theft.

Life can not be acquired or given away more than once (with current technology).

But that's not what property means to everyone. For me, property is something that is owned privately, and I claim private ownership of my life.

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