A veteran teacher turned coach shadows two students for two days • Hacker News Board

Re: A veteran teacher turned coach shadows two students for two days

#21

Post by learc83 » Sat, Oct 11, 2014, 8:12 PM UTC

smoyer wrote: post #9

dangrossman wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was your college experience a lot like high school in that regard? I don't feel like mine was. My schedule never involved 6+ hours of sitting without breaks. Even in semesters with a heavy workload, some of the classes were always labs or very interactive, not just lectures. If classes were back-to-back, they were still often in different buildings, so there was a bit of an exercise break between lectures as opposed…

It was ... though I didn't notice as much in my EE/CS classes (perhaps because I was so interested in the content?). On the other hand, my Chem 12 section had about 400 students in it - there was no chance for the professor to engage us during the lectures. This was pretty common in the classes that were BDRs (Basic Degree Requirements). Econ 2/4 (Micro/Macro), Math 160/161 (Differential/Integral Calculus) and Film 1…

But how many hours a week did you spend in lectures? Certainly not the 30 hours a week that many high school students spend, and you almost certainly didn't take 8 classes at a time.

Furthermore, in college you can get up and go the bathroom or get something to drink without asking permission--you can even leave if you want. Even if you don't always exercise this freedom, just the knowledge that you can is a drastic change.

Re: A veteran teacher turned coach shadows two students for two days

#22

Post by learc83 » Sat, Oct 11, 2014, 8:20 PM UTC

moron4hire wrote: post #3

Mithaldu wrote: post #2

> In addition, there was a good deal of sarcasm and snark > directed at students > ... > I realize that sarcasm, impatience, and annoyance are a > way of creating a barrier between me and them. From a european point of view that is something the entire us-american culture embraces and grapples with vigorously, to the detriment of interactions among themselves and with other cultures. It would make sense that this is…

I think we're very stand-offish people. We tend to not engage in conversation with strangers. I think sarcasm is sort of a way to probe another person for where you stand with them, given a functionally retarded mindset towards personal interactions. You can say something, and if the person laughs, you know they are net-positive towards you, and if they don't, you can apologize and claim you were just being sarcastic…

>I think we're very stand-offish people. We tend to not engage in conversation with strangers.

I have never heard that from anyone. What culture are you comparing the US to? I've heard the exact opposite from nearly every non-American I've ever discussed this with. If anything they think Americans are too friendly/chatty.

Re: A veteran teacher turned coach shadows two students for two days

#23

Post by learc83 » Sat, Oct 11, 2014, 8:32 PM UTC

Mithaldu wrote: post #2

> In addition, there was a good deal of sarcasm and snark > directed at students > ... > I realize that sarcasm, impatience, and annoyance are a > way of creating a barrier between me and them. From a european point of view that is something the entire us-american culture embraces and grapples with vigorously, to the detriment of interactions among themselves and with other cultures. It would make sense that this is…

>us-american

There's no need to ad "us" to "american". While the Americas can refer to the entire new world, the term "American" is wholly unambiguous. When you say American everyone in the world knows to whom you are referring, including all the other people of the Americas.

Re: A veteran teacher turned coach shadows two students for two days

#24

Post by matwood » Sat, Oct 11, 2014, 8:47 PM UTC

Periodic wrote: post #8

I'd like to step back from this from a moment and get a little more abstract and ask if this idea of shadowing applies to software products (or any other business, really). Has anyone really sat down and shadowed one of their users for a whole day? I know small usability studies are pretty common. You get someone in a room, ask them to perform some tasks, see what they do. But if you have an app that people are going…

One of my first jobs was writing software for call centers. The agents did things like CS, take payments, etc... I frequently went onto the calling floor and sat with the agents to see how they worked. Their bonuses were in part based on speed, so any software I wanted them to use had to not slow them down. They also had to deal with multiple separate programs, so additional software had to get out of the way when not being used.

It was a great first job, and I learned a lot about writing usable software.

Re: A veteran teacher turned coach shadows two students for two days

#25

Post by judk » Sat, Oct 11, 2014, 8:49 PM UTC

smoyer wrote: post #5

Afton wrote: post #4

The three points from the article: > [1] Students sit all day, and sitting is exhausting. > [2] High School students are sitting passively and listening during approximately 90% of their classes. > [3] You feel a little bit like a nuisance all day long. People wonder why high school aged students are unruly, unpleasant, and filled with deep negative emotions (anger, disdain, need-to-rebel). I look at this list (espec…

I'm on the board of a small private high-school and I'm going to forward this to the headmaster but ... Sitting all day [1] passively listening to a droning professor [2] and feeling like a nuisance [3] if you don't grasp the material, pay attention and avoid causing disruptions [3] is an important skill for college survival. If we change the curriculum to engage the students more (which I tend to believe will increa…

Are you suggesting that college education is so poorly structured that it is important to give students a few years of practice, instead of improving the learning environment so they can learn more? Maybe the kids wouldn't even need college lecture of they learned the 400person Chem/Calc/whatever 1 class material the first time the saw it in high school.

Re: A veteran teacher turned coach shadows two students for two days

#26

Post by diek » Sat, Oct 11, 2014, 10:33 PM UTC

vvpan wrote: post #16

I grew up and went to school in Russia, but spent my last three grades in the US. Both have their pros and cons, but some cons of the US system were very apparent. 1. In Russia I remember having eight classes a day only briefly and that quickly came to an end because having so many classes was considered to be close to child abuse. Six was the norm, sometime seven, but definitely not every day of the week. Here I had…

For point 3, it really depends on the suburb. I grew up in a nice suburb and after school was always about getting together with other kids in the area. We could ride bikes all around the neighborhood, go to local parks, and go to a movie on the weekends.

Re: A veteran teacher turned coach shadows two students for two days

#27

Post by protonfish » Sat, Oct 11, 2014, 10:46 PM UTC

Having been a teacher (for one miserable year) I have too much to say about this. I'll try to make a few points and not rant.

There is a reason that classes are like this. In my experience it is because if you try to have more participation in a large classroom it devolves quickly into chaos. Which you you little angels remember making sport of the substitute teacher? Putting 30 teenagers in a room with one adult and expecting them to sit for an hour every day and "learn" is laughably insane. Teachers that make it work do so by becoming wardens of their own little compound. And this is after all effective tools for discipline have been taken away from teachers and most parents and the slimy administrative politicians siding against you. Maybe if you could beat a little psychopath once in a while you would not have to put 99% of your classroom effort to shushing and threatening and other emotionally abusive crowd control techniques.

Ever heard of Sudbury schools? These are schools were they don't make the kids do anything. There are no classes, standards or curriculum. Testing shows no significant academic difference with "normal" schools. Think about that: the effect of modern education is indistinguishable from a placebo.

Education is fucked from the ground up. It's a stupid idea poorly executed. I say let's just be honest and call school what it is: baby-sitting. At least then we can stop being so cruel to our children and let them relax and enjoy themselves.

Sorry, I failed to not rant.

Re: A veteran teacher turned coach shadows two students for two days

#28

Post by e12e » Sat, Oct 11, 2014, 10:48 PM UTC

Mithaldu wrote: post #2

> In addition, there was a good deal of sarcasm and snark > directed at students > ... > I realize that sarcasm, impatience, and annoyance are a > way of creating a barrier between me and them. From a european point of view that is something the entire us-american culture embraces and grapples with vigorously, to the detriment of interactions among themselves and with other cultures. It would make sense that this is…

Pink Floyd would disagree that it's a particularly US centric problem...?

    We don't need no education
    We dont need no thought control
    No dark sarcasm in the classroom
    Teachers leave them kids alone
    Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
    All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
    All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

I can't really imagine that French or Italian schools are much better - but I may very well be wrong. And it'snbeen a few years since Pink Floyd was in school, obviously...

Re: A veteran teacher turned coach shadows two students for two days

#29

Post by Excavator » Sat, Oct 11, 2014, 11:32 PM UTC

vanderZwan wrote: post #7

smoyer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on the board of a small private high-school and I'm going to forward this to the headmaster but ... Sitting all day [1] passively listening to a droning professor [2] and feeling like a nuisance [3] if you don't grasp the material, pay attention and avoid causing disruptions [3] is an important skill for college survival. If we change the curriculum to engage the students more (which I tend to believe will increa…

Why shouldn't college education be more engaging as well? I'm teaching at the Interaction Design programme in Malmö, which is very much centered around project based learning and because of that inherently avoids the problems mentioned to a large degree. Although I admit that interaction design lends itself better to such an approach than some other subjects.

Is this akin to the Entertainment Technology Center¹ as founded by Randy Pausch, and Donald Marinelli?

1: http://www.etc.cmu.edu/

Re: A veteran teacher turned coach shadows two students for two days

#30

Post by jacalata » Sun, Oct 12, 2014, 12:24 AM UTC

Periodic wrote: post #8

I'd like to step back from this from a moment and get a little more abstract and ask if this idea of shadowing applies to software products (or any other business, really). Has anyone really sat down and shadowed one of their users for a whole day? I know small usability studies are pretty common. You get someone in a room, ask them to perform some tasks, see what they do. But if you have an app that people are going…

Absolutely, this is known as user ethnography and has been around for a long time. Here's a random article: http://www.uxmatters.com/mt/archives/2010/06/ethnography-in-...