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What makes for a stable marriage?

randalolson.com

111–120 of 142 posts

Re: What makes for a stable marriage?

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also people who stay together for their kids.

Yeah, that's definitely a common reason. But I actually feel that it's one of the worst ones, and that kids would be much better off if the parents calmly explaining their decision to the kids in a positive way, thereby sparing them the pain, conflict, and at the very least unhapiness that staying together would likely bring.

Some kids need two parents more than others. My ex and I stayed together as long as we did in part "for the kids." He physically moved out about a month before our oldest turned 18. I think we did the right thing. I have health problems and two special needs sons. My oldest was quite challenging to raise. I have reason to believe that divorcing sooner would have been catastrophic and potentially deadly for one or more of us.

Since you cannot a/b test this in individual cases and can only say "people who left earlier have these corresponding average experiences or outcomes compared to people who stayed longer," I think it's a terrible disservice to many people with big life challenges to act like they were just being neurotic to stay as they long as they did.

Re: What makes for a stable marriage?

#113

This is a fascinating topic to me. I read it with great interest, and I might even go and do a bunch of my own analysis of the data. But I can't help but think that in a way the whole thing deeply misses the point. My skepticism started when I got to the third point: "How often you go to church". The results seem obvious to me. In general, churches frown on divorce, so of course church goers are going to have lower d…

Notice that the article isn't even claiming anything about "happy" marriages. The article is solely about divorce rates. It's not "missing the point," you're just looking for a point that the author of this article never intended to make.

Re: What makes for a stable marriage?

#114

Slightly off topic, but I'm genuinely curious why forward-thinking secular people in the west still want to get married. Historically, and still in many parts of the world, its arguably an incredibly sexist tradition that has its roots in religious and patriarchal control. In many ways it has been completely re-defined, at least in the west, and doesn't have any/many of those connotations any more - but it begs the q…

> it[']s arguably an incredibly sexist tradition that has its roots in religious and patriarchal control

It is, but thing I would encourage people to keep in mind if they're wondering whether they want to participate in such a tradition is: Your marriage will be what you make it. No particular marriage has to be patriarchal, though of course many are.

You may choose, for example, not to have the wife change her last name; or maybe you both change your last names to something new, maybe by combining parts of your names (I saw this done once). The significance of that is symbolic, of course -- it expresses your commitment to an equal marriage; it doesn't absolve you of doing the hard work to make that a reality -- but it can be an important symbol.

You also might want to take a close look at the wedding ceremony itself. Using two rings is an easy step. The old tradition of having the bride's father "give her away" is one that I would suggest you might want to omit. If you can't bring yourselves to do that, maybe you could have the groom's mother also give him away -- people will laugh, but you'll make your point. Anyway, the larger point is, it's your ceremony, and you get to design it.

Can you have an equal marriage without doing any of those things? Of course you can, but if you find yourselves resistant to symbolic actions like these, you might want to ask yourselves why, because if you resist the symbols you will very likely resist the reality.

Re: What makes for a stable marriage?

#115
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's not really such a thing as a bad marriage so much as selfish participants Exactly. See, I never worry about myself being selfish, but my biggest fear is that I will get married to someone who just quits caring about me or who "gets bored" (I can't stand that phrase) and leaves me.

I don't like the "gets bored" phrase either ... it's right up there with "he/she changed" (which is a minor variation on "I thought I could changed him/her). "People don't change" is kind of a funny phrase too - there's some truth in it, but I'm certainly not the same person I was when I married over twenty-seven years ago. My wife has changed too - we're not young anymore and yet our love (and devotion) to each othe…

People change. Sometimes dramatically and sometimes as a result of trauma. I hope it never happens to you or anyone around you, but it does happen and marriages fail because of it. I do agree that the phrase gets over-used, but I also acknowledge that it describes a legitimate phenomenon.

And people fail, sometimes avoidably, sometimes not. We are rarely tested to our breaking point, and it's easy to be smug when we see others fail, thinking we could have succeeded where they did not. The tendency to believe that anyone who has failed is "making excuses" is understandable, but one of the great things about maker culture is the way it embraces failure: it recognizes that we all can stretch ourselves too far and that there are circumstances where no physically conceivable amount of effort could have created success.

Under such circumstances it's important to fail gracefully, not to deny the possibility of or responsibility for failure. I think this happens a lot in divorce: people blame their partner because they aren't willing to say, "I have failed", and that creates a huge amount of pain and divisiveness, and even worse, it makes lawyers rich.

Failure is always an option. We know this as makers, hackers and engineers. It isn't simply a matter of "trying harder". Some problems cannot be solved under the constraints we are given, and when that happens we have failed, as surely as a girder that has buckled under an excessive load. This conundrum is sometimes known as "the human condition": http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_strain.htm

Re: What makes for a stable marriage?

#116
Couples who elope are 12.5x more likely to end up divorced than couples who get married at a wedding with 200+ people.

So this article is conflating elopement with not having wedding guests. They aren't the same thing. I eloped -- got married in secret. No, there were no wedding guests. That does not mean the two things are identical.

Though, Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elopement_(marriage) says:

To elope, most literally, merely means to run away and to not come back to the point of origination.[1] More specifically, elopement is often used to refer to a marriage conducted in sudden and secretive fashion, usually involving hurried flight away from one's place of residence together with one's beloved with the intention of getting married.

Today the term "elopement" is colloquially used for any marriage performed in haste, with a limited public engagement period or without a public engagement period. Some couples elope because they dislike or cannot afford an expensive wedding ceremony, or wish to avoid objections from parents, or religious obligations.

Which gives me pause because, on the one hand, I married in secret. On the other hand, I did not actually go anywhere and our circle of mutual friends all knew our intentions to marry for like a year or more beforehand.

We did end up divorced but we were married for more than 2 decades and the divorce was amicable. I think it lasted as long as it did and fared as well as it did in part because we handled our marriage as a very private matter. I don't think you will ever get me in front of 200+ people to marry. If I ever remarry, I expect it to be a good marriage that lasts for many years.

Re: What makes for a stable marriage?

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also people who stay together for their kids.

Anyone thinking about "staying together for their kids" should talk to people whose parents divorced and ask them, "Were you happier before or after your parents split?" Cases vary, but the people I've had that conversation with have all said their parent's divorce was a relief. I know there are people who claim "divorce as such" is bad for kids but I'm very doubtful about that. Divorce can be good or bad depending o…

My opinion -- as someone whose parents divorced when I was 5 -- is that merely staying together and being miserable isn't necessarily an improvement on divorcing, but getting into couples therapy and working through your issues is vastly better, for your kids as well as for you, than either a miserable marriage or an acrimonious divorce.

Re: What makes for a stable marriage?

#118
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that happiness in a marriage varies heavily over time, and has lots of ups-and-downs. I think a big thing that commitment devices (religion, family ...) help with is that when the going gets touch for a little while, you stay together, which is usually good in the long run. If your marriage sucks for several years, or if there's abuse, then breaking it may be OK; but many of the issues you discard woul…

Yes, I agree that commitment has value. But the standard view promulgated my many religions (and expressed in some of the comments here) that marriage should be almost non-negotiably for life takes this WAY too far. I don't know where the balance is, but I am positive that it is nowhere near where tradition places it.

> But the standard view promulgated my many religions (and expressed in some of the comments here) that marriage should be almost non-negotiably for life takes this WAY too far.

It depends on what you think is the purpose of marriage. The traditional view you're questioning is that marriage is a very serious contract that is never to be broken (usually with a few exceptions, like infidelity or abuse). I suspect this view is historically an economic device for raising children: the woman raises children while the man provides for the family (please note, I'm making no normative argument for these roles). Monogamy is obviously historically useful for ensuring paternity, and there's obvious selective pressure for that norm to arise (although I've seen studies claiming that humans have always tended to practice punctuated monogamy).

These days, that view of marriage is less vital in the Western world (at least the economic part), but it still has a lot of cultural momentum. Aside from that, the only modern purpose of official marriage is legal benefits: taxes, wills, medical discretion, child custody, etc. Apart from those, I see little difference in a "marriage" and simple long-term cohabitation other than the notion that the former is a life-long commitment.

Re: What makes for a stable marriage?

#119

Slightly off topic, but I'm genuinely curious why forward-thinking secular people in the west still want to get married. Historically, and still in many parts of the world, its arguably an incredibly sexist tradition that has its roots in religious and patriarchal control. In many ways it has been completely re-defined, at least in the west, and doesn't have any/many of those connotations any more - but it begs the q…

> its arguably an incredibly sexist tradition that has its roots in religious and patriarchal control.

I'd like to hear more of that argument. Most specific marriage ceremonies are religious, of course, but I'm skeptical that the concept of (pledged) life-long monogamy and cooperative child-rearing has its roots in religion.

As for marriage being patriarchal, I don't really see how that's the case, at least any more than the entire world is patriarchal. I do suspect that monogamy comes from the selective pressure for males to have confidence in the paternity of their mates' children, so in that sense I suppose you could call it "patriarchal."

Re: What makes for a stable marriage?

#120
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>both participants cared to work a bit. How do we measure whether the amount of caring done was enough or not? Considering it varies based on personalities and other convincing capabilities of a partner, how do we know for sure apart from just getting information from the partners themselves who say that they tried a lot to make it work. Its important to remember that there is lot of suffering involved when one of th…

We don't measure it - I don't see this turning into a scientific study. I'm not suggesting that one party should be subjected to continued suffering when they're bound to a selfish person either. This is a definite down-side to societal pressure. The other somewhat related topic is abuse victims. Even without societal pressure, they'll often convince themselves they deserve it and stay with their abuser.

So how did you evaluate that they didnt try enough? I mean why do you think overwhelming majority comes in that category?
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