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40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

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Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#61

Post by lhnz »

brazzy wrote: post #56
lhnz wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were you previously depressed yourself or are you just trotting out the party line? I have been depressed before. While it's true that some people can take medication and receive platitudes and coping methods on how to deal with the facts of a sad and sorry life, this won't "cure" everybody. What about those people that suffer for 10+ years? --- In regards to the typical statements that depressed people have to hear…

You seem to mix up three different points/views, which weakens your argument a lot: - The word "platitudes" and the scare quotes around "cure" indicate that blanket skepticism towards depression therapy of the kind I see from conspiracy nuts. You disqualify yourself from serious discussion that way. - "coping methods on how to deal with the facts of a sad and sorry life" indicates that you believe depression is cause…

I'm not mixing up three different points/views, I was trying to give a faithful description of my own depression?!

My point was that I find the standard approach towards depression alienating because it completely discounts my own experiences. And as you neatly clarified, I disqualified myself from serious discussion of my own depression.

I don't think I have a better solution than what already exists, but I'm trying to get people to understand that human experience can't be completely generalised. When your framework disparages the remarks of people that have been depressed and have left depression surely there might be a problem there?

I will reiterate:

  1. I had depression caused by long-term external factors.
  It's popular to think this doesn't happen but it can happen.
  2. When I went to see a therapist I received platitudes and 
  coping strategies however as I had an external factor this
  felt like treating the effect and not the cause.
  3. It was really bad. I feel like I'm arguing with a bunch of 
  people that have no way of empathising.
It's not that I don't believe people can be cured but a combination of internal and external factors can make this difficult, and in the few case I know of people that have been depressed they have been "cared for" but not "cured" by the system.

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#62

Post by [deleted] »

lazyant wrote: post #55
bproctor wrote: post #22

I probably have an unpopular opinion on this, but I feel that people who wish to commit suicide should not be prevented from doing so. By all means, if someone wants to get help or needs counseling they should be able to get it. But if in the end their choice is suicide, we should be making it easier for them, not harder. I think that if I ever wanted to commit suicide I would be less likely to seek counseling out of…

Many people that have survived a suicide attempt (a guy jumping from the Golden Gate bridge is a well-known case) have regretted intermediately and go on to live a "normal" life.

[deleted]

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#63

Post by zimpenfish »

pjc50 wrote: post #60
zimpenfish wrote: post #20

How much does the US spend on anti-terrorism activities[1] (which is, finger in the air, maybe 5000 people killed in 15 years?) compared to their mental health system (6500 people dead every -two months-)? [1] It's about $40bn. http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/factsheet_department_homeland/

The US spends a considerable number of lives on "anti-terrorism" combat, as well.

An excellent adjunct-point.

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#64

Post by kbart »

bproctor wrote: post #22

I probably have an unpopular opinion on this, but I feel that people who wish to commit suicide should not be prevented from doing so. By all means, if someone wants to get help or needs counseling they should be able to get it. But if in the end their choice is suicide, we should be making it easier for them, not harder. I think that if I ever wanted to commit suicide I would be less likely to seek counseling out of…

In some corner cases (i.e. terminal illness, serious disability etc.) I would agree with you. But mostly suicidal behaviour and attempts are caused by temporary difficulties (mostly failed relationships, financial difficulties, loneliness) or mental conditions that can be treated - depression, addiction. I personally know quite a few people that would be gone by now if had been surrounded by people with your attitude and that lead normal life today.

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#65

Post by barry-cotter »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #34
bproctor wrote: post #22

I probably have an unpopular opinion on this, but I feel that people who wish to commit suicide should not be prevented from doing so. By all means, if someone wants to get help or needs counseling they should be able to get it. But if in the end their choice is suicide, we should be making it easier for them, not harder. I think that if I ever wanted to commit suicide I would be less likely to seek counseling out of…

I think you're confusing or equalizing suicide with euthanasia; the former is, in this case, a mental issue triggered by chemical inbalances (which in turn are often due to external causes), and as the people that have been through depression can attest to, a temporary one. Suicide in that case can be listed as a temporary lapse in judgment. Euthanasia, on the other hand, is a conscious choice, often by the terminall…

I loathe your condescension. If someone wants to die and they still want to die a month later, let them. By what right do we force those who want to die to suffer a little longer? If it's their life why can't they end it if they will?

You know what's not a terminal illness that is bad enough that many with it would welcome death? Schizophrenia. For some the medicine works, the side effects are acceptable, they can lead a normal life. But there are plenty who can't. You know what else isn't a terminal illness that would make you long for oblivion? Surviving when the rest of your family didn't, surviving when the accident was your fault.

And you know what, if you think your life isn't worth living and you want out, you are suffering.

I've been depressed, I've been very depressed indeed and I'm glad to have seen the back of it but there are plenty who spend years and decades there and if they want out they should be let go, not locked up "for their own safety"

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#67

Post by mklim »

lhnz wrote: post #42
31reasons wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to educate yourself with the science of choice and what happens during depression that changes your ability to make right decisions. Assuming that a depressed person is able to make the right decision is just wrong. How many times did you decide on something and than changed your mind? only this one is irreversible. Depression is curable with right support and medication. There may be few who are hopeless ca…

Were you previously depressed yourself or are you just trotting out the party line? I have been depressed before. While it's true that some people can take medication and receive platitudes and coping methods on how to deal with the facts of a sad and sorry life, this won't "cure" everybody. What about those people that suffer for 10+ years? --- In regards to the typical statements that depressed people have to hear…

Similar story. In college I knew someone suffering from bipolar disorder. There's a lyric from Andrea Gibson's "Nutritionist"—"Some people will never understand the kind of superpower it takes for some people to just walk outside." Every day for her for months at a time was just agonizingly painful for her to get through, beyond my abilities to accurately describe in a quick comment on the internet.

The vast majority of the anti-suicide efforts were just—insulting in her case, in a lot of ways. There were a lot of people and organizations telling her very loudly not to kill herself, and that it would get better if she just stuck it out a little more and saw a therapist. There was a legal and medical system willing to lock her up, for a fee, and keep her from actually physically harming herself. (This terrified her. She said her stay in a mental institution had been horrific and entirely unhelpful—they basically put her in solitary and kept her from doing anything at all, for hours. They wouldn't even let her have a pen and paper to write with because they were concerned that she would use it for self-harm.)

But there was nobody actually providing a way to make her life less painful. She came from a wealthy background and had good health insurance, so could afford weekly therapy sessions and psych meds. Some of the pills would work, for a few months or weeks at a time, but none of them were permanently helpful—and most of them took weeks to titrate up to an effective dose, so with each switch there would be a huge gap of time where she was as bad off as ever and nobody knew if the next pill would even work.

The anti-suicide efforts were like—it was like she was burning alive, and there were all these organizations and people in place determined to keep her from shooting herself to end the pain. But there was nobody who could actually stop her from burning.

I don't know. It's an awful situation all around. There are definitely a lot of people who are just temporarily upset or suffering from mild and easily treatable depression who do benefit from things like fences on bridges and national help hotlines. But more research is definitely needed. Someone else said in this thread that what we should really be doing is trying to keep people off the ledge entirely, not just trying to keep them from jumping, and I definitely agree there. What we really need is ways to keep people from wanting to die, not just ways to keep them from committing the act.

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#68

Post by lmz »

ux-app wrote: post #57
lmz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why is that? It's her body and she has the right to remove the fetus in her. Why does she not have the right to put a tankful of Nitrogen in her lungs if she chooses to do so?

Your statement implied that there was much in common with the two scenarios. There isn't. Therefore it's a bad comparison. fwiw I'm pro choice on both issues.

And I am too. I am not anti abortion I am pro voluntary suicide.

"Just go to therapy it will be better" vs "Give the baby a chance you might grow to love it". How is it any different?

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#69

Post by thaumasiotes »

gadders wrote: post #54
thaumasiotes wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The demographic of "people dying by suicide variously defined" may shift, but that won't have any effect on the leading causes of death for ages 15-34. It's a safe world out there now; young people generally don't die.

My fault - I misread the grandparent as saying those ages are the most likely to commit suicide.

Thinking a little more about it, I'm not at all convinced it's a problem for suicide to be a leading cause of death in any demographic. Ordinal numbers are pretty useless for many purposes. I'd be pretty pleased to know that the only way for someone in my demographic (however defined) to die was by suicide.

Re: 40,000 suicides annually, yet America simply shrugs

#70

Post by lmz »

robbiep wrote: post #66

40,000 is an awfully large number but it is less than the number of gun deaths in the US (put at around 50-60,000 depending on the sources), which would be much easier to prevent

Most gun deaths in the US are suicides. [1]

[1]: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/05/24/suicides-acc...

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