Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#21

Post by amackera » Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 11:56 PM UTC

thismat wrote: post #19

Everyone fails to mention now much more advanced and nicer developing in VS is compared to any other platform. It's worth the money for a copy if you're a serious developer looking to use .NET, it's worth it even more now that there is little initial overhead. No, I don't work exclusively in .NET, I work in a variety of platforms, but now I have yet another service to offer clients and potential clients that is cost…

"Everyone fails to mention now much more advanced and nicer developing in VS is compared to any other platform."

Everyone fails to mention that since it's completely a matter of personal opinion. I am of the opinion that you're dead wrong...

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#22

Post by moe » Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 12:25 AM UTC

nopassrecover wrote: post #20

moe wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's a big step towards growing their dev popularity Looks more like a last straw to me. There's simply nothing they could realistically offer at this point to lure the web community into their walled garden. Dozens of OSS stacks are competing for mindshare. Microsoft is not even playing.

ASP.NET MVC devastates all web platforms I've dealt with but rails. I realise it's a personal preference thing but you should look into it - it's open source, they got prominent community figures to design it and it lets you use C# (a great growing language) online properly without worrying about ASP.NET crap.

To each their own. If MS can revert their public image to a point where people will seriously consider them for a web development platform then hats off. Until then I doubt anyone in their right mind would trust the creator of Internet Explorer and IIS with anything web related.

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#23

Post by etherael » Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 4:42 AM UTC

thismat wrote: post #19

Everyone fails to mention now much more advanced and nicer developing in VS is compared to any other platform. It's worth the money for a copy if you're a serious developer looking to use .NET, it's worth it even more now that there is little initial overhead. No, I don't work exclusively in .NET, I work in a variety of platforms, but now I have yet another service to offer clients and potential clients that is cost…

Currently trying to learn asp.net after a long and happy career in ruby on rails, django, grails, codeigniter based solutions.

Find it very hard to believe you seriously think people actually "prefer" this? But I guess that just illustrates perfectly the fact that is entirely a matter of opinion, which is probably why it isn't often mentioned :)

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#24

Post by duncanj » Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 5:11 AM UTC

This is called "puppy-dogging". You want to sell a puppy. The customer isn't sure he wants to shell out the money. So, you say, "Take the puppy home, and it's free for two weeks." It's obvious from there.

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#25

Post by pubb » Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 10:15 AM UTC

etherael wrote: post #23

thismat wrote: post #19

Everyone fails to mention now much more advanced and nicer developing in VS is compared to any other platform. It's worth the money for a copy if you're a serious developer looking to use .NET, it's worth it even more now that there is little initial overhead. No, I don't work exclusively in .NET, I work in a variety of platforms, but now I have yet another service to offer clients and potential clients that is cost…

Currently trying to learn asp.net after a long and happy career in ruby on rails, django, grails, codeigniter based solutions. Find it very hard to believe you seriously think people actually "prefer" this? But I guess that just illustrates perfectly the fact that is entirely a matter of opinion, which is probably why it isn't often mentioned :)

If you can, go with ASP.NET MVC or MonoRail - "regular" ASP.NET will be probably be frustrating given your background. ASP.NET makes it difficult to control the generated html and js, and likes to pretend the web is stateless (viewstate).

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#26

Post by thismat » Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 1:25 PM UTC

etherael wrote: post #23

thismat wrote: post #19

Everyone fails to mention now much more advanced and nicer developing in VS is compared to any other platform. It's worth the money for a copy if you're a serious developer looking to use .NET, it's worth it even more now that there is little initial overhead. No, I don't work exclusively in .NET, I work in a variety of platforms, but now I have yet another service to offer clients and potential clients that is cost…

Currently trying to learn asp.net after a long and happy career in ruby on rails, django, grails, codeigniter based solutions. Find it very hard to believe you seriously think people actually "prefer" this? But I guess that just illustrates perfectly the fact that is entirely a matter of opinion, which is probably why it isn't often mentioned :)

I feel your pain, the company I got my programming start with was locked into the Microsoft stack already so I was really motivated to use .NET to get a leg up.

And yes, I honestly can't stand webforms, the other person that replied here was spot on, the MVC framework is what you want, there is still a learning curve to the environment like anything else, but when it really starts to shine is the debugging, really, that's what I feel personally is the most power aspect of VS. The debugging is simply lightyears beyond using a terminal debugger to me.

Of course you're right, and I worded my initial post a little wrong, it's always a matter of opinion and what you're used to, but even after using multiple frameworks, nothing feels quite as integrated and polished to me as the VS environment.

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#27

Post by thismat » Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 1:38 PM UTC

amackera wrote: post #21

thismat wrote: post #19

Everyone fails to mention now much more advanced and nicer developing in VS is compared to any other platform. It's worth the money for a copy if you're a serious developer looking to use .NET, it's worth it even more now that there is little initial overhead. No, I don't work exclusively in .NET, I work in a variety of platforms, but now I have yet another service to offer clients and potential clients that is cost…

"Everyone fails to mention now much more advanced and nicer developing in VS is compared to any other platform." Everyone fails to mention that since it's completely a matter of personal opinion. I am of the opinion that you're dead wrong...

Yes, yes of course it's a matter of personal opinion. How much time have you spent in VS though, out of curiosity?

I worded that post very poorly, but the point still stands that the integration, power and seamless feel to debugging in VS is unlike any other solution I've seen or used.

Don't forget I use rails for almost all of my personal development, I love the environment and framework, BUT, tool for tool comparison after working fairly extensively with both, to me, it just doesn't have the same level of detail and polish.

I don't get why people are so defensive of their environments, or why there is such bias and hate for the different environments.

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#28

Post by thismat » Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 1:41 PM UTC

moe wrote: post #22

nopassrecover wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASP.NET MVC devastates all web platforms I've dealt with but rails. I realise it's a personal preference thing but you should look into it - it's open source, they got prominent community figures to design it and it lets you use C# (a great growing language) online properly without worrying about ASP.NET crap.

To each their own. If MS can revert their public image to a point where people will seriously consider them for a web development platform then hats off. Until then I doubt anyone in their right mind would trust the creator of Internet Explorer and IIS with anything web related.

moe, what do you think of stackoverflow.com? That's running on MVC with a complete Microsoft stack.

EDIT: Also might be worth mentioning they use the BizSpark program.

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#29

Post by moe » Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 2:52 PM UTC

thismat wrote: post #28

moe wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To each their own. If MS can revert their public image to a point where people will seriously consider them for a web development platform then hats off. Until then I doubt anyone in their right mind would trust the creator of Internet Explorer and IIS with anything web related.

moe, what do you think of stackoverflow.com? That's running on MVC with a complete Microsoft stack. EDIT: Also might be worth mentioning they use the BizSpark program.

Anecdotical evidence is not needed when you can get hard figures; http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2009/08/31/august_2009_web...

I find the "Totals for Active Servers Across All Domains"-graph at the bottom especially intriguing.

Either Microsoft didn't pay their NetCraft-bill, or IIS is falling off a cliff here.

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#30

Post by thismat » Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 4:30 PM UTC

moe wrote: post #29

thismat wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

moe, what do you think of stackoverflow.com? That's running on MVC with a complete Microsoft stack. EDIT: Also might be worth mentioning they use the BizSpark program.

Anecdotical evidence is not needed when you can get hard figures; http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2009/08/31/august_2009_web... I find the "Totals for Active Servers Across All Domains"-graph at the bottom especially intriguing. Either Microsoft didn't pay their NetCraft-bill, or IIS is falling off a cliff here.

It's not anecdotical evidence, it was in question of this: "Until then I doubt anyone in their right mind would trust the creator of Internet Explorer and IIS with anything web related."

So, from what I can gather, Spolsky and Attwood are:

A) Out of their minds (possible?)

B) Are limited and going to have issues since it's built on the Microsoft stack.

Edit: Also, I didn't know if you knew SO was built on the Microsoft stack, I was asking a legitimate question.