Outsourced Jobs Are No Longer Cheap, So They're Being Automated • Hacker News Board

Re: Outsourced Jobs Are No Longer Cheap, So They're Being Automated

#61

Post by rjsw » Thu, Oct 09, 2014, 9:12 AM UTC

Padding wrote: post #41

zenogais wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another part of me thinks that automation has been part of our society for a long time, and that taking it further only changes the kind of jobs everyone has, maybe even promoting equality by eliminating the more menial tasks (and therefore making every worker's skill and experience important, instead of them being just a replaceable cog). This is the theory, but the realities of this promoting equality are really…

> In reality automation seems to be a source of widespread immiseration beneficial to only a few. Are you serious? The printing press alone has benefitted humanity as a whole immensly over the last centuries. And there were piles and piles more of automation necessary for us to be able have this discussion right now - on a global scale and at virtually no cost to either of us.

I don't think printing is a good example, there were not that many scribes around who were suddenly put out of work.

Re: Outsourced Jobs Are No Longer Cheap, So They're Being Automated

#62

Post by luch » Thu, Oct 09, 2014, 9:21 AM UTC

jmadsen wrote: post #48

Interesting to read all these comments about the "real" problem. What the article actually SAID was: "Labor in India and China is still cheaper than it is in the United States, but it's not the obvious economic move that it was just a few years ago: Wages in India have increased about 10 percent annually over the last five years" In other words, it might seem - I say might, because the article is obviously not a real…

There is another interesting side-effect : companies from developed countries are unwillingly training low-wage workers from 3rd the world.

As an anecdotal evidence, the company I'm working for has partially outsourced their customer services (technical maintenance, etc.) to Northern Africa in order to lessen the wage bill. Their problem is the following one : as soon as they find a competent employee and training him, he expatriate himself into Europe and sell his skills for a much better payroll. Now my firm is stuck with incompetent salary men and old-timers which aren't willing to relocate themselves.

Re: Outsourced Jobs Are No Longer Cheap, So They're Being Automated

#63

Post by lmm » Thu, Oct 09, 2014, 9:55 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #30

beedogs wrote: post #12

"What does it mean for the economies of these up-and-coming world powers? Well, probably the same thing that it means for everyone else: The automators will continue to get very, very rich, while the automated will have to find something else to do." Or, you know, basic income. Why is the answer to "there are no jobs anymore" always "well, I guess you can starve, then"?

Very possibly, but proponents of a basic income consistently fail to articulate three things: how these monies will be collected, what rationale there is for distributing it (other than the implicit acknowledgement that the alternative is civil unrest) and why it won't be inflationary.

> how these monies will be collected

No different from current welfare programs.

> what rationale there is for distributing it

Because it's right. Because the marginal utility of money is much higher for the poor, and because inequality is inherently harmful over and above the effects that low absolute wealth has on the poor.

> why it won't be inflationary

Even if it is inflationary, basic income can't fail to reduce inequality, because money is fungible. If we go from a world in which A has $1 and B has $0 to one where A has $2 and B has $1, we go from A getting all of the resources to A getting 2/3 of the resources and B getting 1/3 of the resources.

That said, the argument is that basic income increases productivity by a) improving the marginal incentives for people to start working or work more hours b) increasing consumer demand

Re: Outsourced Jobs Are No Longer Cheap, So They're Being Automated

#64

Post by dageshi » Thu, Oct 09, 2014, 9:56 AM UTC

zo1 wrote: post #59

yodsanklai wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it found that less than one tenth of the 1982 list was still on the list in 2012 It doesn't seem like a good argument. It's not because they're not at the very very top anymore that their fortune hasn't grown a lot.

Well, it could simply just mean that others have surpassed them in terms of overall wealth, sure. Not that they lost the wealth.

Presumably very few people in that list are rich in purely cash or near cash terms. They're rich because they own businesses at the apex of their valuation? As technology changes businesses rise and fall which probably accounts for the turnover in the list.

Re: Outsourced Jobs Are No Longer Cheap, So They're Being Automated

#65

Post by blumkvist » Thu, Oct 09, 2014, 10:04 AM UTC

rjsw wrote: post #61

Padding wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In reality automation seems to be a source of widespread immiseration beneficial to only a few. Are you serious? The printing press alone has benefitted humanity as a whole immensly over the last centuries. And there were piles and piles more of automation necessary for us to be able have this discussion right now - on a global scale and at virtually no cost to either of us.

I don't think printing is a good example, there were not that many scribes around who were suddenly put out of work.

How about the Combine Harvester?

This talk about technology taking jobs from people is utter nonsense. This has happened before - the Industrialization. People are freed from unnecessary chores like harvesting or standing at the cashier, for example. Soon enough new types of jobs were in high demand - mathematicians, engineers, professors. This enabled further development in other professions - more doctors, teachers, historians, etc.

Same thing will happen now. Just look at the education landscape. Data science is taught EVERYWHERE.

Industrilization made humanity able to focus on exact sciences. The advancement in exact sciences will enable us to focus on social studies, philosophy, history, ecology, medicine, law, system design.

Re: Outsourced Jobs Are No Longer Cheap, So They're Being Automated

#66

Post by gnufied » Thu, Oct 09, 2014, 10:13 AM UTC

hokkos wrote: post #55

The author of this weak article seems to surf the waves of "robots are taking our jebs" because he brings no proof that the layoff of Yahoo, IBM, Cisco in India are the results of automation or business shrinking or strategic decision about outsourcing. Also this site hacks the scrolling wheel in a bad way, small scrolls seems discarded.

It is very interesting that - he uses Yahoo layoffs as an example. Because from what I know, by and large Yahoo hires better engineers than Outsourcing firms. And since I have friends who have worked for Yahoo India, the kind of jobs they did - are not going to be automated away until we invent software capable of writing complex programs. In other words - can a robot write/maintain Yahoo maps? Something tells me - we are not there yet.

Overall the article is load of bull. and I don't think author has expertise required to judge what kinda of IT jobs are going to be automated away and what kind don't.

Re: Outsourced Jobs Are No Longer Cheap, So They're Being Automated

#67

Post by netcan » Thu, Oct 09, 2014, 10:21 AM UTC

Putting commentary on things like this is always tricky. Reality is complicated and perspectives tend to be more impoverished.

I think part of this is actually a narrowing of gaps between middle classes in large cheap labour markets like China and the working poor in Europe and the US, mostly due to the rising middle class wealth in the former.

A second major cause is progressing technology and culture.

"Automotion" is not always this literal version of machines directly replacing humans. A website where you can renew your insurance, buy plane tickets, make a complaint or order a pizza is automation of a sort. It's not necessarily a self driving scooter deliver that pizza.

This is harder to fetishize as an ideology. We are not replacing hand looms with steam powered looms. It's more like we decided to just be naked instead.

Re: Outsourced Jobs Are No Longer Cheap, So They're Being Automated

#68

Post by dscrd » Thu, Oct 09, 2014, 10:21 AM UTC

They were at some point?

Re: Outsourced Jobs Are No Longer Cheap, So They're Being Automated

#69

Post by furyg3 » Thu, Oct 09, 2014, 10:22 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #14

gboudrias wrote: post #4

> The automators will continue to get very, very rich, while the automated will have to find something else to do. Part of me thinks this will lead to make much more apparent the paradox of capitalism: Those with the most money can... make the most money. Over time this means it all gets funneled into just a few families' pockets, until they own everything (which is silly and most likely would not be put up with afte…

Over time this means it all gets funneled into just a few families' pockets, until they own everything... Yes, this is a popular theory, but it doesn't appear to be happening. To quote Larry Summers: > the Forbes 400 list also provides only limited support for Piketty’s ideas that fortunes are patiently accumulated through reinvestment. When Forbes compared its list of the wealthiest Americans in 1982 and 2012, it fo…

The churn in the top .0001% means basically nothing as to how serious wealth accumulation is. It's a horrible indicator.

Looking at the world cup results of 1982 (Italy, W. Germany, Poland, France) and 2014 (Germany, Argentina, Netherlands, Brazil), you could assume that there is a healthy amount of churn happening, so there's not really an accumulation of medals happening. Every country has a chance! In reality, there are only 8 winners and maybe 12 who have ever had a chance to win (out of 24 who have ever even made it to the top 4). There are ~196 countries in the world. The wealth distribution of FIFA medals is not good if you haven't already been a winner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup#Teams_reaching_t...

Re: Outsourced Jobs Are No Longer Cheap, So They're Being Automated

#70

Post by eli_gottlieb » Thu, Oct 09, 2014, 10:24 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #30

beedogs wrote: post #12

"What does it mean for the economies of these up-and-coming world powers? Well, probably the same thing that it means for everyone else: The automators will continue to get very, very rich, while the automated will have to find something else to do." Or, you know, basic income. Why is the answer to "there are no jobs anymore" always "well, I guess you can starve, then"?

Very possibly, but proponents of a basic income consistently fail to articulate three things: how these monies will be collected, what rationale there is for distributing it (other than the implicit acknowledgement that the alternative is civil unrest) and why it won't be inflationary.

>what rationale there is for distributing it (other than the implicit acknowledgement that the alternative is civil unrest)

So that we can reduce work pressure and people can have fun with their lives instead of struggling for a living in a world of plenty. I mean, DUH. Why does this even need to be stated in the first place?