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Ask HN: Does “diversity hiring” lower the bar for certain groups?

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Ask HN: Does “diversity hiring” lower the bar for certain groups?

#1
Hi HN,

Diversity seems to be a hot topic recently (e.g., see http://bit.ly/1n8Y8A9). Just curious, will companies have incentives to lower the bar of hiring for certain group of people to optimize their diversity statistics? If you are in hiring committee, what's your company's policy on this topic?

Re: Ask HN: Does “diversity hiring” lower the bar for certain groups?

#2
I don't think people should be given special treatment because they belong to a particular group. It's not a HR problem - It's a problem with society itself. Certain groups will inevitably lag behind (in terms of number of candidates) in certain fields because of complex social factors which companies cannot really change (and maybe it's even wrong to try to change them).

There are complex social and psychological reasons why people choose to work in particular fields - I oppose the idea of using marketing to steer people into choosing careers which they have no natural interest in.

People spend most of their lives working - It's cruel for companies to manipulate them into lifelong commitments that they never really wanted.

Re: Ask HN: Does “diversity hiring” lower the bar for certain groups?

#3
post #2

I don't think people should be given special treatment because they belong to a particular group. It's not a HR problem - It's a problem with society itself. Certain groups will inevitably lag behind (in terms of number of candidates) in certain fields because of complex social factors which companies cannot really change (and maybe it's even wrong to try to change them). There are complex social and psychological re…

Totally agree with you. In terms of hiring, any factor other than job-related capability shouldn't be considered. Trying to optimize diversity metrics violates this principle.

Re: Ask HN: Does “diversity hiring” lower the bar for certain groups?

#4
That's not the only axis to optimize to get more people from a target group. You can also devote a larger proportion of time/money towards searching for talent from that group, or you can provide better incentives. If your organization values top talent as well as diversity, you will prefer optimizing those axes over lowering the bar.

Re: Ask HN: Does “diversity hiring” lower the bar for certain groups?

#5
sigh - this question comes up so often.

No.

1. Candidates are not stupid neither are companies - trying to fill "quotas" is both wasteful and does not have a good ROI.

2. The assumption that the reason companies are not diverse is because one group of individuals is more skilled is wrong.

Diversity is not about hiring one group over another. It is about limiting and highlighting the explicit and implicit biases that exist in every organization and working to resolve them.

This can be done, for example, by making sure job ads have gender neutral language - so many do not, which turns off female candidates - which is why they are not very diverse.

Re: Ask HN: Does “diversity hiring” lower the bar for certain groups?

#6
When you run a job advert don't ask for "recent graduates" because that discriminates against older people. Instead make clear that the job is an entry level position with little responsibility or pay.

When you run a job ad don't talk about how you all go to the beach every Wednesday and then say you're looking for a close cultural fit. This probably discriminates against people in wheelchairs (and probably several other groups).

When you run a job ad don't have a photo of your team (all male, all age 18 to 26) and then talk about cultural fit.

Mentioning "cultural fit" is sometimes a huge fucking flag that you're doing something wrong.

As an aside: "do we have to employ dumb people so our company has more black or female or disabled employees?" is a remarkably offensive thing to say. It's pretty close to what you're asking.

Re: Ask HN: Does “diversity hiring” lower the bar for certain groups?

#7
post #6

When you run a job advert don't ask for "recent graduates" because that discriminates against older people. Instead make clear that the job is an entry level position with little responsibility or pay. When you run a job ad don't talk about how you all go to the beach every Wednesday and then say you're looking for a close cultural fit. This probably discriminates against people in wheelchairs (and probably several o…

Re your last sentence: That might only reflect your personal opinion. I didn't even mention any particular gender or ethic group.

Re: Ask HN: Does “diversity hiring” lower the bar for certain groups?

#8
post #5

sigh - this question comes up so often. No. 1. Candidates are not stupid neither are companies - trying to fill "quotas" is both wasteful and does not have a good ROI. 2. The assumption that the reason companies are not diverse is because one group of individuals is more skilled is wrong. Diversity is not about hiring one group over another. It is about limiting and highlighting the explicit and implicit biases that…

From what I have seen, top players in the field do use gender neutral language in their job posting. Regarding point 2, I think the point is the number of candidates. Even if all the groups are uniform in terms of skill, the larger group will end up getting more offers.

Re: Ask HN: Does “diversity hiring” lower the bar for certain groups?

#9
post #6

When you run a job advert don't ask for "recent graduates" because that discriminates against older people. Instead make clear that the job is an entry level position with little responsibility or pay. When you run a job ad don't talk about how you all go to the beach every Wednesday and then say you're looking for a close cultural fit. This probably discriminates against people in wheelchairs (and probably several o…

You mentioned dversity. That is usually interpreted to mean "protected characteristics". While these are different in different countries they usually include:

• Sex and gender identity; sexuality

• age

• race

• religion

• disability

• parenting status

and others.

You also asked about lowering the bar to employ these people - the clear implication being that a worker with a protected characteristic is of a lower standard than a worker without a protected characteristic. You might want to add a clarification if that's not what you meant.

Re: Ask HN: Does “diversity hiring” lower the bar for certain groups?

#10
post #9
post #6

When you run a job advert don't ask for "recent graduates" because that discriminates against older people. Instead make clear that the job is an entry level position with little responsibility or pay. When you run a job ad don't talk about how you all go to the beach every Wednesday and then say you're looking for a close cultural fit. This probably discriminates against people in wheelchairs (and probably several o…

You mentioned dversity. That is usually interpreted to mean "protected characteristics". While these are different in different countries they usually include: • Sex and gender identity; sexuality • age • race • religion • disability • parenting status and others. You also asked about lowering the bar to employ these people - the clear implication being that a worker with a protected characteristic is of a lower stan…

Let me re-iterate myself: I didn't mention any specific attribute, not to say specific gender or ethic groups. So, what you are saying here is probably not a natural interpretation to draw from my question.

I do agree with the cultural fit part though. It's subjective and easy to manipulate to what direction as convenient to the company.

Talk about "dumb", I don't think sane companies will ever hire anybody who they considered as "dumb", because it's counter-productive. However, it's possible that a certain group have a slightly lower bar. They are still good, but just not as selective as their counter part. As long as it's good for the company's public image, morale, etc, they might want to make this trade-off.

Does this policy not uncommon in the industry? -- Is essentially my question. Please note that this doesn't necessarily mean that certain group(s) are superior/inferior then the other group(s). This simply means the general public confused the population as general population, instead of number of candidates. So that companies might want to skew the graph a bit to make it composed more like general population to please general public, media, whatever.

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