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Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

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Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#291

Post by jack-r-abbit »

percentcer wrote: post #290
jack-r-abbit wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I shouldn't have to give you my account number for you to send me money. I don't really want to maintain a mental list of who has my account number and who to update if I change banks or something. I'm not saying checks are the best solution for all situations but they have enough use cases to make them somewhere better than ridiculous . Every time my cleaning lady comes, I just leave a check for her on the count…

Isn't your account number on the check?

Yes. My concern is not of security for my account number. But if I have to supply someone with my account number before they can give me money, then that is not the most ideal thing, IMO. They should just be able to give me the money without knowing my account number.

Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#292

Post by 20141008 »

nkozyra wrote: post #230
20141008 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the question you should ask is 'where is your witness?' - the lender needs to have more than documentary proof of your debt. Here's how the process plays out: When you owe a debt what happens is the lender will contact you a few times and then, if you don't pay, they will sell the debt on to people who are in the collections business. And over the course of a year or two your debt will likely change hands m…

On point #1, I can assure you the actual person / officer who witnessed you sign for a loan does not have to be present. In fact, the vast majority of debt involves no such person - a lending contract is often undertaken electronically. What they will show is the contractual agreement of terms with your signature (physical or electronic). The original lender will not be there and in fact no longer "owns" the debt, ha…

Of course this is only my personal experience, your mileage may vary, but I just checked my credit report and the loan I defaulted on less than 5 years ago is not on it. At all. The single blemish is a department store credit card payment marked 30 days late in 2012.

This is after 3+ years of daily collections calls from half a dozen companies pursuing a high five-figure debt.

The takeaway being: debt is a business phenomenon and discussions about it are a negotiation. I negotiated hard; when my offers of partial repayment were refused I never answered their calls again. In fact I created a special, looong outgoing voicemail message that sounded like I was answering the phone ("Hello? What? Hello? Are you there? Okay, a large pizza? We don't do gluten free!") and forwarded any unrecognized number to it straightaway. Just maybe that made someone laugh and they decided to toss my file.

Had I gotten a summons, I was advised by a lawyer to demand a witness. I never tested that tactic, but I do suspect that if someone had the means to extract money from me they would have, and they did not.

Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#293

Post by bicknergseng »

jackmaney wrote: post #286
bicknergseng wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't really going anywhere, so I'll make my last set of points. Relevant http://xkcd.com/386/ . > losing one's phone could mean losing keys, ID, wallet, etc. Yes. It also means replacing them all is also only one step: getting a new phone and restoring settings from the cloud. Some comparisons: Losing my keys: Analog: --4 with backups are a quick trip to a local Lowes or Home Depot, ~30 min, ~5 bucks --2 withou…

So, let's say you get your way and lose your phone, and let's say you lose it outside walking distance from your home. How will you get a new phone? You can't call anyone. You can't drive anywhere. You can't take a bus or subway or train. You can't take a cab. You'd either have to walk or hitchhike (or, if you were with someone you know, you could catch a ride). But where would you go? You can't go home. You could tr…

Borrow someone else's phone to make a call. Carry some amount of cash on you. Credit cards don't displace the need for cash anyway. Curl up in a ball and hope someone pities your total helplessness?

>you can't pay for a new phone You can if there is a computer you can use there or on the way. Most companies allow you to pick up in store.

>You can't go home. Again, locking yourself out is a problem whether you have a physical key or your phone is the key. Have a backup key, or better yet a lock that can accept a password or something.

Like I was saying, consolidating doesn't eliminate the need for backup options... it actually increases that need somewhat. But it does make remote wiping and recovery considerably easier and reduces the number of things I have to carry/remember.

I think I would be able to handle most situations, but maybe it wouldn't be for everyone. Not saying I'd want to be in the middle of Harlem at 3AM without my phone that is also my wallet and keys, but I think if that were the scenario I would take the proper steps to not get myself into that situation. Tap to pay NFC tag? Pebble vibrates when you move more than 50 feet from your phone? Dunno, but I bet, given more time and thought than a HN thread, there would be solutions almost any scenario that would be as good or better than today.

That said, seems like this kinda thing would be optional and not mandatory for quite some time...

Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#294

Post by dublinben »

w4 wrote: post #8
donniefitz2 wrote: post #5

I have to say, the intro video for this was pretty good. Well done.

It's made by Sandwich Video (who do great work): http://sandwichvideo.com/ Notice the same guy in nearly every video.

He's really embracing the 'selling pickaxes' model of cashing in on a boom. Even if all the companies they've promoted fail, they've still been paid.

Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#295

Post by Silhouette »

20141008 wrote: post #207
eli wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all collections agencies are so sloppy and unscrupulous. If you do owe the money and they do have the documentation to support it, you may well have a judgement against you and that definitely will hurt your credit score. Some companies (like say gym membership) have internal collections departments that can be quite aggressive. They would certainly be able to back up any lawsuit. In general, you really want to t…

> In general, you really want to try to avoid being sued. In reality, companies will do almost anything to avoid suing you for small amounts of money. The financials don't make sense. E.g. how much gym debt would it take to justify a lawyer's fees to pursue you? Not less than several thousand dollars, probably much more.

This might be true under the US legal system, where as I understand it each party usually pays their own costs. In a loser-pays system, particularly one with an efficient small claims procedure, the conclusion might be different.

In any case, if you're wilfully and knowingly taking on debts you can't repay and using a card like this to CYA, your bigger risk in some places might be getting arrested for criminal fraud. Good luck ever getting credit again whatever the CRAs say about you if you've also got a criminal record for a fraud-related offence.

Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#296

Post by jackmaney »

bicknergseng wrote: post #293
jackmaney wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, let's say you get your way and lose your phone, and let's say you lose it outside walking distance from your home. How will you get a new phone? You can't call anyone. You can't drive anywhere. You can't take a bus or subway or train. You can't take a cab. You'd either have to walk or hitchhike (or, if you were with someone you know, you could catch a ride). But where would you go? You can't go home. You could tr…

Borrow someone else's phone to make a call. Carry some amount of cash on you. Credit cards don't displace the need for cash anyway. Curl up in a ball and hope someone pities your total helplessness? >you can't pay for a new phone You can if there is a computer you can use there or on the way. Most companies allow you to pick up in store. >You can't go home. Again, locking yourself out is a problem whether you have a…

> Borrow someone else's phone to make a call. Carry some amount of cash on you.

Okay, so if you were to have your way, the only thing that I'm seeing as anything within a reasonable neighborhood of an answer to "how do I replace my phone?" is to always carry cash on you and always be with someone who has a working phone and either lets you borrow it or can drive (or otherwise cover your transportation costs) to the nearest phone store. That actually seems like an answer. A horrible, horrible answer, but an answer. We're making progress!

> You can if there is a computer you can use there or on the way. Most companies allow you to pick up in store.

Most companies also don't let you replace your cell phone--or make any significant changes to your account, for that matter--without showing ID. Without your phone, you have no ID. Hence, you're fucked.

> Tap to pay NFC tag?

"Damn, where did my tag go? Oh, well, I'll just have to buy anoth--oh, wait..."

> Pebble vibrates when you move more than 50 feet from your phone?

0_o I...what? What are you trying to say here?

Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#297

Post by jackmaney »

bicknergseng wrote: post #293
jackmaney wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, let's say you get your way and lose your phone, and let's say you lose it outside walking distance from your home. How will you get a new phone? You can't call anyone. You can't drive anywhere. You can't take a bus or subway or train. You can't take a cab. You'd either have to walk or hitchhike (or, if you were with someone you know, you could catch a ride). But where would you go? You can't go home. You could tr…

Borrow someone else's phone to make a call. Carry some amount of cash on you. Credit cards don't displace the need for cash anyway. Curl up in a ball and hope someone pities your total helplessness? >you can't pay for a new phone You can if there is a computer you can use there or on the way. Most companies allow you to pick up in store. >You can't go home. Again, locking yourself out is a problem whether you have a…

> Borrow someone else's phone to make a call. Carry some amount of cash on you.

Okay, so if you were to have your way, the only thing that I'm seeing as anything within a reasonable neighborhood of an answer to "how do I replace my phone?" is to always carry cash on you and always be with someone who has a working phone and either lets you borrow it or can drive (or otherwise cover your transportation costs) to the nearest phone store. That actually seems like an answer. A horrible, horrible answer, but an answer. We're making progress!

> You can if there is a computer you can use there or on the way. Most companies allow you to pick up in store.

Most companies also don't let you replace your cell phone--or make any significant changes to your account, for that matter--without showing ID. Without your phone, you have no ID. Hence, you're fucked.

> Tap to pay NFC tag?

"Damn, where did my tag go? Oh, well, I'll just have to buy anoth--oh, wait..."

> Pebble vibrates when you move more than 50 feet from your phone?

0_o I...what? What are you trying to say here?

Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#298

Post by nkozyra »

20141008 wrote: post #292
nkozyra wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On point #1, I can assure you the actual person / officer who witnessed you sign for a loan does not have to be present. In fact, the vast majority of debt involves no such person - a lending contract is often undertaken electronically. What they will show is the contractual agreement of terms with your signature (physical or electronic). The original lender will not be there and in fact no longer "owns" the debt, ha…

Of course this is only my personal experience, your mileage may vary, but I just checked my credit report and the loan I defaulted on less than 5 years ago is not on it. At all. The single blemish is a department store credit card payment marked 30 days late in 2012. This is after 3+ years of daily collections calls from half a dozen companies pursuing a high five-figure debt. The takeaway being: debt is a business p…

It happens, but your scenario is rare.

It's all about recoverability and risk over return. Most of the time a 5-figure debt will be worth the effort. When you start getting into $5k or less debts, it's sort of a crapshoot. The original owner of the debt will often sell it for pennies on the dollar, at which point a collector will do their best to get as much as they can out of people without a civil case, because civil cases are expensive and there's no real guarantee of return (people with no money, people on the verge of bankruptcy, etc).

The general advice is not to negotiate at all with creditors. Once something's gone into collections, you will see no benefit to resolving the debt other than mitigating your risk of a law suit. And even at that point, the first phase is a mediation option wherein you'd again be able to throw out a number, do a payment plan, etc.

Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#299

Post by res0nat0r »

dmdeller wrote: post #265
drglitch wrote: post #223

As some have pointed out, Citi had this[1] since about 2004, Fleet/Bank of America [2] had it in their setup as well for as long as i can remember. The problem is going to be PCI compliance - the rules that govern merchant procedure for accepting physical credit cards. Specifically, the last 4 digits must be visually validated on the card and typed in to avoid cloned cards (chips largely solve this) in most stores. F…

The banks' monitoring software is in fact a hassle for me. I've only ever had legitimate purchases denied. The retailer's order flow is not usually optimised for this case, requiring a tedious, often manual process to get my order reinstated, while at the same time often causing the retailer to treat me with suspicion (they can't tell why the charge was denied the first time, and are sometimes reluctant or unable to…

I'd suggest a better bank, or better retailers.

I was traveling across the country last month and bought some expensive sunglasses and my card was declined. (My cab purchases and other legit looking travel items worked just fine). I immediately on my phone got a text asking if this purchase was legit, replied with '1' for yes, and my card was accepted after trying again few seconds later.

I've headed this off before by calling the 24x7 number on the back of the card before I leave the country or go on vacation across the USA and tell them to flag my account that I will be traveling. This usually takes about 5 minutes.

Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#300

Post by sanderjd »

nyolfen wrote: post #272
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The day that credit becomes a civil right, I move to Mongolia. You pay for what you have; nobody owes you anything. To view a house as some natural right is an upside-down view of the world to me.

natural rights are arbitrary and we decide what they are as a culture. god didn't pass your right to free speech to moses on mount sinai. i'm not arguing for guaranteed credit (as i already oppose capitalism) but i think guaranteed housing is both noble and easily achievable in the developed world

Believing that housing should be a natural right may be a reasonable position (even if I disagree that it is practical), but surely you don't believe that everybody is entitled to indefinite ownership of an arbitrarily expensive house. I don't have statistics, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most people whose houses are foreclosed end up paying rent for an apartment, rather than living on the street.
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