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Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

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Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#181
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debt isn't a moral obligation, and to somehow frame it as such is dubious at best. If you as a debt owner or servicer can't keep your books straight, you have absolutely no business attempting to collect on a debt. If you're taking someone to court or attempting to take their wages, you better be damn sure you're in the right.

In my personal moral code, most debts ARE a moral obligation. Perhaps your moral code is different from mine.

Indeed, perhaps your morals are different. I generally believe the whole CC industry is on extremely shaky moral grounds. More like sinking sand really. It only works because it can wreck poor and down-on-their-luck people.

This[1] is the type of situation where I believe the victims(yes, I'm using that word) deserve to have their debt removed.

1. http://www.npr.org/2014/09/15/347957729/when-consumer-debts-...

Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#182
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same video production company is being used all over for startups like this. It does not imply any relationship to coin or any others. http://sandwichvideo.com/

Yes but since the products of Coin and Final are so similar, surely the confusion is understandable. The first time I saw the video, I certainly wondered if Final was either a follow-on product or pivot from the makers of Coin.

This was also my first thought.

"Oh the guys at coin pivoted to this, awesome!"

Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#184
post #2

CTO/Co-Founder of Final here. Final is what we built to take back control of our own credit cards for how and when we’re charged, instead of leaving it up to merchants. That led to merchant-specific numbers and limits, managed automatically, as well as transparency in statements. It’s our stake in the ground, a way to shift the culture in credit towards consumer friendliness. Happy to answer questions

[deleted]

Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#185
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debt isn't a moral obligation, and to somehow frame it as such is dubious at best. If you as a debt owner or servicer can't keep your books straight, you have absolutely no business attempting to collect on a debt. If you're taking someone to court or attempting to take their wages, you better be damn sure you're in the right.

In my personal moral code, most debts ARE a moral obligation. Perhaps your moral code is different from mine.

a bank reposessing a house and ousting a family is a much more immoral act than being unable to pay for one. moral considerations in interactions with a corporation is foolish

Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#186
post #2

CTO/Co-Founder of Final here. Final is what we built to take back control of our own credit cards for how and when we’re charged, instead of leaving it up to merchants. That led to merchant-specific numbers and limits, managed automatically, as well as transparency in statements. It’s our stake in the ground, a way to shift the culture in credit towards consumer friendliness. Happy to answer questions

Do you actually know, for a fact, that you can generate arbitrary card numbers? Meaning have you got an agreement with visa, mastercard, or similar where they allow you to do that. Is there a limit on how many customers/unique card numbers you can have, and is there an inherent cost in gaining a new number (e.g. will accounts be capped at X disposable numbers per Y period). Once you delete a card number how quickly i…

They need a relationship with the issuing bank on top of Visa/MC. That is rather impossible. However, Visa/MC new TSP that was announced with Apple Pay really solves this problem. In essence, we all get this new feature for free just next year :)

Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I borrow from a person, I'll bleed to death in the snow to make sure they get paid back. But from a corporation? Their losses are priced into their interest rate. I'll still pay them back of course, but if I lose my job, have no income, I'm not crying over it.

That sounds exactly like my justification for stealing! Businesses usually have insurance to cover losses from theft. (And if they don't, that's on them.) And who's paying for that insurance? Right: Their customers. So it's kind of like: Unless you steal from them, they're stealing from you! Also, I don't like paying for stuff.

You're entitled to your opinion. Perhaps you'll understand the other side when your small business pops, you've got no income, and you exhaust any savings you have.

Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#189

> Final lets you give a unique credit card number to every merchant, or a disposable one-time use number for one-off purchases. This is something I have been asking for since forever! People on here claimed it was "impossible" because of how credit cards work, I guess not... > Tired of your monthly yoga pants subscription? Or a two-week "free" trial that lasted four months? Just deactivate that card number. It's that…

Counterpoint. If you get taken to collections over a trivial amount ( Have to go to court for collections? The first words out of your mouth need to be, "Verify the debt." Ask them to produce the document you signed and agreed to. In the vast majority of cases, without this, your case will be dropped with prejudice. This is based on research I did while dealing with a personal mortgage "issue". http://www.thisamerica…

Actually, the question you should ask is 'where is your witness?' - the lender needs to have more than documentary proof of your debt.

Here's how the process plays out:

When you owe a debt what happens is the lender will contact you a few times and then, if you don't pay, they will sell the debt on to people who are in the collections business. And over the course of a year or two your debt will likely change hands multiple times, at incredible devaluation. (Listen to the This American Life episode, it's great in this regard.)

These companies will make all sorts of outlandish claims about what might happen if you don't pay. In reality, nothing at all will happen outside of the hit your credit rating will take if they take the issue that far. All things considered, that's a non-issue for most people facing debts they have no way of repaying.

In the not very likely event you are actually summoned to court, what will happen is that the lawyers working for the current owner of your debt will try to strong-arm you before you go before a judge. They'll say 'let's settle this now before things get serious in there' etc., and will offer to accept a fraction of what the paper says you owe.

That's when you ask, 'where is your witness?'. The chances of the 2nd or 3rd collection agency to purchase your packaged debt being able to haul into court the very same loan officer who witnessed you sign for a loan years ago approaches zero for cases involving less than seven figure sums.

Source: advice given to me by a debt counselor during my own business loan default 'issue'.

Update: the idea of bad debt ruining your credit score is a myth. I defaulted on a high-five-figure debt and two years later qualified for a six-figure mortgage with a mid-five-figure income. Most of the talk of 'this will go down on your permanent record' is FUD.

Re: Final – A credit card built for the 21st century

#190
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the problem w/ traditional credit cards is that my interests are not aligned with those of the card issuer. It's better for me to pay off my balance every month, but better for my bank if I don't so they can collect interest. Will this be any different with Final? If so, how do you plan to make money?

We make money when our customers are happy. Yes, we still make money the traditional way - via transaction fees and interest on debt. But we make a lot more money if we have millions of happy customers - we can't win this market if we treat our customers like every other bank. We're building this product for ourselves and for our friends first. And many of them are unhappy with how banks treat customers and optimize…

But you also make money from advertisers. From your privacy policy:

"you agree that we may provide any of the information we have collected from you in non-personally identifiable form to an Advertiser, in order for that Advertiser to select the appropriate audience for those advertisements and/or offers."

"Final is aligned with you"

No, not aligned with me at all.

Why can't we have a business model that is straight up, you know, where the ENTIRE relationship is between you and us, the end user, where your profit comes ENTIRELY by making us happy. The free-market works much better that way.

Advertising never makes anything free or cheaper. Quite the opposite: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8372640

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