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Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#91
post #29

The government’s position, the complaint said, “forces Twitter either to engage in speech that has been preapproved by government officials or else to refrain from speaking altogether.” Isn't that the definition of censorship? I'm surprised they don't actually use that word in the lawsuit: http://www.washingtonpost.com/r/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/201...

That's the implication of the complaint; it's saying 'prior restraint' without saying it.

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#92
post #80
post #29

The government’s position, the complaint said, “forces Twitter either to engage in speech that has been preapproved by government officials or else to refrain from speaking altogether.” Isn't that the definition of censorship? I'm surprised they don't actually use that word in the lawsuit: http://www.washingtonpost.com/r/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/201...

"Censorship" isn't unconstitutional (e.g. obscenities laws). Certain kinds of censorship may be, and they have specific names.

Such as "prior restraint."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/prior_restraint

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#93
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Censorship" isn't unconstitutional (e.g. obscenities laws). Certain kinds of censorship may be, and they have specific names.

That's an interesting statement. I regard obscenities laws to be unconstitutional. Specifically, to be extremely anti-free speech and anti-free press (depending). All forms of censorship are unconstitutional and blatant violations of the first amendment. Given the countless flawed or flat-out wrong positions the Supreme Court has taken over the centuries when it comes to individual rights, I think we can likely agree…

The exceptions to the first amendment are largely rooted in historical practice, which informs what the founders would have understood the scope of free speech to be. I don't think its a supportable statement that they would have understood all forms of censorship to violate the first amendment.

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#94
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost certainly criminal charges, and possibly (probably?) ones that "pierce the veil" (ie, go after the executives/employees personally, not [just] the corporation). Not exactly something anybody would really want to risk. (I am not a lawyer, I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice).

Would any jury convict those people? I'd like to hope the answer is no. Again these are just rhetorical questions, I don't work for twitter.

The answer is substantially more likely to be yes for many juries. The charges are likely to be clear cut and the evidence pretty unambiguous. The judge will give the jury clear direction and they're likely to convict. Even if they don't, they'd probably be excellent grounds for appeal.

Fundamentally, the courts are there to uphold the rule of law. If the law's an ass then that's a job for the legislature.

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#95
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully even small such victories against NSLs will encourage more companies to sue the government for using NSLs. Or we can just push for Congress to stop renewing the Patriot Act next year.

Just push? With the intelligence community hacking into Senators' computers to defend themselves from investigation, even admitting it, at will, with no reprimand? And have it barely scrape the news? Is it that easy? Can we just repeal bills like the Patriot Act? Look at how easy it was for Australia to invent a media blitz of fear to pass legislation allowing surveillance that has no counter terrorism purpose.

Sometimes I wonder how we're not falling on the dark side quicker. Who would oppose?

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#96
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can they get around this by citing 2 partially overlapping ranges in separate reports? E.g. report 1: "We received 0-500 NSLs" report 2: "We received 450-950 NSLs"

You can leak information with just one range: "We received between 332 and 334 NSLs." If they require larger ranges, it's not so different going from there to, "We received between 133 and 533 NSLs." Whether a judge will agree that you've complied with the requirements after that sort of trickery is something else entirely. I can't imagine them not complaining about that sort of tactic and whether you get away with i…

Yeah, "letter of the law" defenses tend to work better when the intent of the rule in dispute is unclear. There's lots of arguments about the intent behind the 2nd amendment, which means it mostly falls back to a "letter of the law" interpretation. There's no dispute that the NSL obfuscation compromise is intended to obscure the number of NSLs. Revealing the number of NSLs, while still following the "letter of the law," wouldn't fly in front of a judge.

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#97
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the US government... They're always investigating, and always collecting all information they can coerce or steal in order to conduct future investigations or use as blackmail.

The current assumption should be that they are always targeted. This has always been the case, even before Snowden or any other events.

The goal is targeted but the collection is not. The government's many ridiculous briefs on the subject show that they either don't understand or don't care about the distinction. That doesn't mean you should ignore it.

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#98

I think this is the first time I've seen the phrase "post Edward Snowden world", used like "post 9-11 world" has been for the last decade-plus. I hope that catches on. Edit: can't believe I got the name wrong. Fixed.

Now I want to know what you said the first time around.

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#99
post #80
post #29

The government’s position, the complaint said, “forces Twitter either to engage in speech that has been preapproved by government officials or else to refrain from speaking altogether.” Isn't that the definition of censorship? I'm surprised they don't actually use that word in the lawsuit: http://www.washingtonpost.com/r/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/201...

"Censorship" isn't unconstitutional (e.g. obscenities laws). Certain kinds of censorship may be, and they have specific names.

Well, the Constitution says everyone has the right to say anything they want. That's what "free speech" means, and that includes things that someone thinks are "obscene".

Not that the government gives a fuck, but still, just to be clear about what we're discussing here. But yeah, "obscenities laws" are most certainly unconstitutional.

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully even small such victories against NSLs will encourage more companies to sue the government for using NSLs. Or we can just push for Congress to stop renewing the Patriot Act next year.

Congress will only stop renewing it if the voters demand it.

Hong Kong, as the most recent example, has once again shown us that whenever "the voters" demand something, the government's response is tear-gas and batons.

But hey, governments are "by the people" and "for the people" of course, and to think otherwise would be tantamount to.. actually seeing what's happening!

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