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Trouble at the Koolaid Point

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Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#111

Post by tomp »

DanBC wrote: post #107
tomp wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We choose between letting everyone go free and dealing with the consequences, or restricting people and living with the consequences. There is no right answer. There is no right answer, but restricting information is the wrong answer, primarily because it doesn't work. The leaked nudes are still available, even if not on reddit. You can still download pirated movies, even if it's not as simple as it used to be. Eve…

> The leaked nudes are still available, even if not on reddit. That's the point - I can dump uuencoded blobs of text in HN that are stolen nudes. I'd be downvoted to hellban if I tried. Online communities create their own standards. Reddit's standards exclude some groups of people. That's a weird choice to make - in the name of freedom of expression we're going to create an environment that is ridiculously hostile to…

> That's a weird choice to make - in the name of freedom of expression we're going to create an environment that is ridiculously hostile to large numbers of people to make sure they can't express their opinions.

So you're suggestion that instead, in the name of safety, we should create an environment that is ridiculously hostile to large numbers of people (banning them) to make sure they can't express their opinions?

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#112

Post by DanielBMarkham »

merrua wrote: post #110
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #26

I only have one story of harassment, but it might be interesting. When I first started blogging, about 10 years ago, I would also post on slashdot. I started getting a lot of traffic. Along with that, I started getting harassed. It was some of the vilest stuff I've ever read in an online forum -- attacking me, my family, my personality, and so on. I found it quite disturbing, as if one of my friends was secretly insa…

http://www.ece.umd.edu/News/news_story.php?id=1788 http://www.enre.umd.edu/content/rmeyer-assessing.pdf http://nms.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/09/12/146144481245... (if you have login)

No doubt there's all kinds of interesting statistics in here. I'd be interested in finding data about the age of the people harassing others. I doubt you'd see many 40-year-olds.

It's really crazy that we give adolescents all this latitude growing up -- they can't be tried as adults, their medical care is the responsibility of others, they are provided free food and medical care if needed, etc. -- and then we expect these same folks to go online and somehow behave like miniature adults. At any one time there's probably a thousand 12-year-olds living in crack houses that are online. And we expect them to behave the same way as a 30-year-old.

By no means am I condoning this kind of trash. But we can explain things without condoning them.

The internet is nice because nobody can tell anything about you, but when talking about things like this, that's not a good thing. There's a vast difference between being harassed by, say, people who are mentally barely able to care for themselves and being harassed by the guy who lives next door.

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#113

Post by Mithaldu »

zimpenfish wrote: post #97
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is really frustrating, because Weev has been openly bragging about ruining Sierra's life for years. But every time it comes up, everyone seems to go "Weev is a hero! LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU SAYING BAD THINGS ABOUT THE HERO." And then everyone goes on talking about whatever he's in the news for now and never ever talks about the trolling. So nobody knows about it.

Yeah, I thought he was just a daft hacker caught by bad laws until I saw the article about his new swastika tattoo a couple of days ago. Between that and finally catching up on the finer details of 'gamergate', I'm thoroughly depressed about the state of the world.

What you're not aware of is that the dailystormer itself is very likely a trolling site in itself, aimed at creating ridiculous and believable content to draw in support by real white supremacists and enrage the unsuspecting public. It would make perfect sense for weev to go on there with a photo of him with fake tattoos to help them in their quest.

That is how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Also, since you mention gamergate, have one adult link on the matter: http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/09/04/gamergate-a-...

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#114

Post by arrrg »

Niten wrote: post #67
jmduke wrote: post #3

This is an excellent, brave thing to write and I originally had a long comment highlighting a bunch of particularly poignant paragraphs that I deleted because really you should just read the entire thing. Neither I nor the vast majority of the people I know have ever been subject to online harassment and it makes me thankful that there are incredible people like Kathy out there. Lord knows I wouldn't have the courage…

I wouldn't call MetaFilter a particularly high quality community. Discussions there can have just as many trite and trollish comments as your average subreddit. How MetaFilter differs is in that it features a rigid, hierarchical moderation structure, with gatekeepers who ensure posted content meets the stringent politically-correct tastes of its leadership. As a result I have seen legitimately interesting, good-faith…

Yeah, this sexist trash was removed. Thankfully.

I’m happy the MetaFilter will not give misogynists like yourself a place to be. And that’s perfectly alright. Keeping awful people out is the right of any community.

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#115

Post by arrrg »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #77
cmdkeen wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a commercial one. Twitter doesn't have to allow them to carry on in this fashion, and it is a massive enabler of trolls. It's attitude towards online abuse is shockingly neglectful. Trolls will always act, but that doesn't mean we have to put up with letting them use the some of the most powerful communications mediums of all time to do so. Twitter has a massive pulpit to make statements that influence socia…

That doesn't solve the problem, it just moves it to other venues.

If by not solve the problem you mean not completely eliminate, then yeah. Of course. Obviously.

What’s with all this binary thinking? It’s completely non-sensical and irrelevant. Twitter is an important tool for communication for many people, so if harassing people gets harder there it makes it easier for those people, even if the harassers move elsewhere. In other places they do get less direct access, so their impact is diminished, even if they put in just as much work.

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#116

Post by zzleeper »

arrrg wrote: post #114
Niten wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call MetaFilter a particularly high quality community. Discussions there can have just as many trite and trollish comments as your average subreddit. How MetaFilter differs is in that it features a rigid, hierarchical moderation structure, with gatekeepers who ensure posted content meets the stringent politically-correct tastes of its leadership. As a result I have seen legitimately interesting, good-faith…

Yeah, this sexist trash was removed. Thankfully. I’m happy the MetaFilter will not give misogynists like yourself a place to be. And that’s perfectly alright. Keeping awful people out is the right of any community.

What on earth are you talking about? Sexist trash? Please avoid TLDRing before replying like that.

If anything, Susan' article is the opposite.

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#117

Post by sqrt17 »

taliesinb wrote: post #78

I'm grateful that I can read the author's account of her experiences, and her analysis of what is going on sociologically. Her story is utterly shocking to read and I feel terrible for her. The general phenomenon of misogynist trolling, and in particular the wave of misogyny masquerading as #gamergate has been astonishing to read about. There's something deeply, deeply disturbing and raw going on here and it is hard…

The point of the article linked is exactly that: separate out the misogyny from the trolling. Expose how the trolls (or that particular troll) use any kind of story that they can construct, be it misogyny, misandry, censorship, whatever people at large hate or fear, to construct polarizing narratives aimed at damaging individual people.

I response to your implied question why this is perceived as much more interesting than an older submission of a talk by Anita Sarkeesian (which I didn't watch, I'm just extrapolating here), it's because it separates out the ideology part from the description of the trolling phenomenon. You don't need to drink SeriousPony's koolaid to hear her argument about trolling in general and this troll in particular.

You can't expose trolls by preaching to the choir, you have to talk everybody's language to subvert trolls' efforts to create a polarized discussion.

Note how OP's post was met with weird complaints that she "thought prostitution and being a victim of domestic violence were somehow 'shameful.'" - this is again trying to use ideology to polarize a discussion that should be troll-targeted and not ideology-targeted.

Note: I'm not claiming that we shouldn't try to discuss ideologies, just that it's something that trolls will try to exploit. And that the difficulty of moderating such discussions is why Hackernews doesn't even try to be welcoming to discussions that are or look ideological. Let's put it this way: the moderators here have a good track record for creating a pleasant, constructive discussion around technical stuff (including Windows and Linux and upstart and systemd and a host of contentious issues) and around business/startup stuff. As we find out how to have a constructive, non-polarizing, non-troll-prone discussion about other issues (global economy, misogyny/misandry, whatever), these things will be received more positively on Hackernews. (Or maybe: as much as they are somewhat related to YCombinator's business with startups).

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#118

Post by oe »

tomp wrote: post #69
scribu wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are several points: 1. Most people starting out online are not aware that "Your chances of being harassed increases linearly as your popularity." and most people that haven't been abused online themselves don't think it's a serious problem. 2. The ratio of harassment to popularity is not a universal constant; it can be improved. 3. By shedding light on the issue, there is at least a hope that the situat…

> By shedding light on the issue, there is at least a hope that the situation can be improved. If nobody talks about this, then there's no way things can get better. On the contrary, silence would probably make things worse, as trolls would learn that they can get away with it. Are you sure about that? It's not like if you tell a thief that stealing is bad, they won't steal any more. Also, a counter point would be, t…

The situation is improved by telling people that "yes, thieves actually exist and stealing causes real harm". People who have not experienced harassing tend to downplay it à la "Well I haven't seen it happen", "It can't be that bad" etc.

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#119

Post by tomp »

oe wrote: post #118
tomp wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By shedding light on the issue, there is at least a hope that the situation can be improved. If nobody talks about this, then there's no way things can get better. On the contrary, silence would probably make things worse, as trolls would learn that they can get away with it. Are you sure about that? It's not like if you tell a thief that stealing is bad, they won't steal any more. Also, a counter point would be, t…

The situation is improved by telling people that "yes, thieves actually exist and stealing causes real harm". People who have not experienced harassing tend to downplay it à la "Well I haven't seen it happen", "It can't be that bad" etc.

How is it improved? Will the thieves stop stealing if they know it causes real harm? Will the trolls/psychopaths stop harassing if they know it's really that bad? What if that's what they want?

Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point

#120

Post by hey_lu »

tomp wrote: post #111
DanBC wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The leaked nudes are still available, even if not on reddit. That's the point - I can dump uuencoded blobs of text in HN that are stolen nudes. I'd be downvoted to hellban if I tried. Online communities create their own standards. Reddit's standards exclude some groups of people. That's a weird choice to make - in the name of freedom of expression we're going to create an environment that is ridiculously hostile to…

> That's a weird choice to make - in the name of freedom of expression we're going to create an environment that is ridiculously hostile to large numbers of people to make sure they can't express their opinions. So you're suggestion that instead, in the name of safety, we should create an environment that is ridiculously hostile to large numbers of people (banning them) to make sure they can't express their opinions?

Why is it an opinion to be able to destroy the lives of other people?
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