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Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#21

Post by nullrouted »

huhtenberg wrote: post #4
kelukelugames wrote: post #2

Can someone help me understand if this is a big deal?

It's not. It's the reputation damage control, largely superficial.

Geez,

Why do people here have to be so cynical? Twitter is doing a good thing here arguing that the government saying they can't release NSL number they are restricting free speech, which is completely true.

Releasing these numbers pose no threat to national security and just shows the DOJs scorched earth policy when it comes to defending their perceived powers.

This is a great thing for Twitter to do and it should be praised for doing so, not be given cynical/snarky replies.

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#22

Post by fleitz »

erenemre wrote: post #17

If I understand correctly, companies cannot say "we have received X (let's say 9) requests". So, is it possible for them to say "We have NOT received 8 or 10 requests"? This clearly doesn't say how many they have received but gives a clue that they might have received 9. Please ignore me if this is silly.

Yeah they are free to do it, and the government is free to charge them.

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#23

Post by Kalium »

uptown wrote: post #15

I've never really understood why companies aren't able to disclose these numbers. It tells the public nothing about specific investigations. To me - it seems like the government has chosen to draw the line in the sand so far beyond where it should be, to avoid having the actual debate over corporate disclosure of more-specific information.

Think of it in crypto terms. If you can know when an investigation is ongoing, you can learn something useful as an adversary.

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#24

Post by joeblau »

While this is a valiant cause, I don't know what this buys Twitter in the long run. If they have the ability to disclose exact numbers, the only number that would really have any impact is 0. It would be interesting to know what, if any, this number would have on their business.

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#25

Post by chc »

stringray wrote: post #5
kelukelugames wrote: post #2

Can someone help me understand if this is a big deal?

I think people wanting others to tell them what is and isn't a big deal seeds some of the biggest problems in the western world.

I think people jumping to conclusions about what is or isn't a big deal is one of the biggest problems of the Internet.

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#26

Post by click170 »

uncoder0 wrote: post #19
golemotron wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not silly but it won't work. People in the tech community typically don't see that you can't "hack the law" like it's machine or program. Judges just don't put up with it. They're adept at augmenting the law with case law that covers the loopholes.

Totally, when I first started learning and caring more about the law I came up with all these clever hacks around various legal agreements and laws... Luckily for me I had friends who went to Law School to explain to me that the law is primarily about intent and most of my hacks weren't loopholes but instead plainly in the wrong and would be dealt with in court if they hadn't already through case law. I think its pre…

Law works the way we want computer programming to work. That is to say, "Do what I meant, not what I coded".

I think we get the impression that it's not that way based on our perception of corporations driving money-filled trucks through legal loopholes, but it's just not the same thing to a judge. Regardless of whether it is to you and I.

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#27

Post by mike_hearn »

uncoder0 wrote: post #19
golemotron wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not silly but it won't work. People in the tech community typically don't see that you can't "hack the law" like it's machine or program. Judges just don't put up with it. They're adept at augmenting the law with case law that covers the loopholes.

Totally, when I first started learning and caring more about the law I came up with all these clever hacks around various legal agreements and laws... Luckily for me I had friends who went to Law School to explain to me that the law is primarily about intent and most of my hacks weren't loopholes but instead plainly in the wrong and would be dealt with in court if they hadn't already through case law. I think its pre…

Well, as a good software-engineer-and-qualified-lawyer friend of mine has said, "the power of the law is in its capacity for vagueness".

I often wish law was written more like a computer program, with lots of unit tests up front. But I have no idea how to actually achieve that. Real life is so much more complex than input to any computer program that an attempt to formalise law even more than it already is formalised would just result in it being totally incomprehensible to the people who have to follow it (as opposed to mostly). Plus the man on the street tends to get very angry when people who are "obviously" guilty get off on a technicality.

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#28

Post by uptown »

Kalium wrote: post #23
uptown wrote: post #15

I've never really understood why companies aren't able to disclose these numbers. It tells the public nothing about specific investigations. To me - it seems like the government has chosen to draw the line in the sand so far beyond where it should be, to avoid having the actual debate over corporate disclosure of more-specific information.

Think of it in crypto terms. If you can know when an investigation is ongoing, you can learn something useful as an adversary.

But "bad guys" have no way of knowing that an increment of a digit is in any way related to their actions. Also, disclosures tend to be time-delayed, further obsfucating what was actually being investigated.

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#29

Post by jobu »

The government’s position, the complaint said, “forces Twitter either to engage in speech that has been preapproved by government officials or else to refrain from speaking altogether.”

Isn't that the definition of censorship? I'm surprised they don't actually use that word in the lawsuit: http://www.washingtonpost.com/r/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/201...

Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders

#30

Post by uncoder0 »

mike_hearn wrote: post #27
uncoder0 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally, when I first started learning and caring more about the law I came up with all these clever hacks around various legal agreements and laws... Luckily for me I had friends who went to Law School to explain to me that the law is primarily about intent and most of my hacks weren't loopholes but instead plainly in the wrong and would be dealt with in court if they hadn't already through case law. I think its pre…

Well, as a good software-engineer-and-qualified-lawyer friend of mine has said, "the power of the law is in its capacity for vagueness". I often wish law was written more like a computer program, with lots of unit tests up front. But I have no idea how to actually achieve that. Real life is so much more complex than input to any computer program that an attempt to formalise law even more than it already is formalised…

I've always thought a good starting point would be to hook up Watson or similar software up to LexisNexis or Westlaw. Would be lovely to run a new ToS or Privacy Policy through such software and see where it breaks down.
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