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Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

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Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#11

Post by nopassrecover »

TomOfTTB wrote: post #7
nopassrecover wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you're saying is that this is a good deal for people who are already locked into Microsoft technologies. No, this is about new companies. If you prefer using Microsoft technologies (e.g. C# and LINQ, MS SQL, ASP.NET MVC) Microsoft would like to take economic considerations out of the equation for new companies (same as they do with BizSpark).

For the record one of the points I was trying to (perhaps badly) make in the post (it's from my blog) is that I don't think it takes the economic considerations out of the equation. When I talk to developers their economic consideration is on the deployment side not on the development side. I don't think most people care that much about the cost of their developer tools as much as they care about the Windows 2008 lic…

Fair points but if you (instead of your clients) are hosting code you will probably want to look to see if you're eligible for the BizSpark program which does include server licences.

Alternatively, use an existing webhost.

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#12

Post by nopassrecover »

TomOfTTB wrote: post #8
nopassrecover wrote: post #6

This isn't about treating developers as idiots. It's about subsidising the cost of starting contracting/a new company using Microsoft technologies so that you can build up some profits before licensing costs become an issue.

The question really is "who is the target of this program" If it's people who were already sold on Microsoft technology than it's just a nice thing to do. If they are trying to woo other developers away from open source solutions the approach they've taken comes across as "we think we're outsmarting you"

I don't think anyone at Microsoft could seriously believe that a developer would base their entire business/consultant career on an unchecked belief that these near-free licences never expired.

I think it's much more likely that they are trying to eliminate one reason new businesses/consultants may decide against using Microsoft tech (which their market research may have yielded). If they can make Microsoft tech accessible to startups, web dev agencies and solo web developers then that's a big step towards growing their dev popularity.

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#13

Post by amalcon »

TomOfTTB wrote: post #8
nopassrecover wrote: post #6

This isn't about treating developers as idiots. It's about subsidising the cost of starting contracting/a new company using Microsoft technologies so that you can build up some profits before licensing costs become an issue.

The question really is "who is the target of this program" If it's people who were already sold on Microsoft technology than it's just a nice thing to do. If they are trying to woo other developers away from open source solutions the approach they've taken comes across as "we think we're outsmarting you"

The developers using open source solutions might be of the class "I'm using opensource solutions because they're better in this case," who Microsoft isn't targeting with this thing. They might be of the class "I'm using opensource solutions because there's no difference in quality, and the opensource stuff is cheaper." Microsoft is trying to make the decision harder for these people, but they're still not really the target audience.

This program is really meant for people of the class "I really want to use Microsoft products X, Y, and Z, but I can't, because I won't be able to afford licenses until my business has spun up. I'll make do with this opensource stuff instead." Now, I'm not entirely sure who these people are. Maybe they're developing desktop software or something. Provided they exist, though, this program could actually help them.

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#14

Post by rksprst »

amalcon wrote: post #13
TomOfTTB wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question really is "who is the target of this program" If it's people who were already sold on Microsoft technology than it's just a nice thing to do. If they are trying to woo other developers away from open source solutions the approach they've taken comes across as "we think we're outsmarting you"

The developers using open source solutions might be of the class "I'm using opensource solutions because they're better in this case," who Microsoft isn't targeting with this thing. They might be of the class "I'm using opensource solutions because there's no difference in quality, and the opensource stuff is cheaper." Microsoft is trying to make the decision harder for these people, but they're still not really the…

I'm one of those people and am happily using Microsoft products through BizSpark to develop web apps. Yes, I could use python with django or php with mysql (and have in the past); but I can build products better and faster with asp.net/c# (it's what I know and like best). And now that I don't have to pay huge licensing fees before I make a profit I can do that.

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#15

Post by pyre »

While it might be/seem deceptive, I think that anyone that decides to base their business off of these tools being free forever without bothering to read the fine print is in for a rude awakening of their own making. Microsoft has provided them with the information, just because they didn't bother to read past the headline is their own fault (the headline is meant to grab attention, not to impart 100% of necessary knowledge).

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#16

Post by moe »

nopassrecover wrote: post #12
TomOfTTB wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question really is "who is the target of this program" If it's people who were already sold on Microsoft technology than it's just a nice thing to do. If they are trying to woo other developers away from open source solutions the approach they've taken comes across as "we think we're outsmarting you"

I don't think anyone at Microsoft could seriously believe that a developer would base their entire business/consultant career on an unchecked belief that these near-free licences never expired. I think it's much more likely that they are trying to eliminate one reason new businesses/consultants may decide against using Microsoft tech (which their market research may have yielded). If they can make Microsoft tech acce…

that's a big step towards growing their dev popularity

Looks more like a last straw to me.

There's simply nothing they could realistically offer at this point to lure the web community into their walled garden. Dozens of OSS stacks are competing for mindshare. Microsoft is not even playing.

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#17

Post by pmorici »

donw wrote: post #3
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #2

> I think a lot of the 'economic disparity' between developing LAMP apps and developing Microsoft apps is imagined and I think $999 a year for three team members is actually a pretty good deal. Keep telling yourself that.

In the commercial software development world, it's an amazingly good deal. It comes with a four-CPU license for both your web and DB servers, full copies of Visual Studio Professional, and a small pile of other tools that would easily breech the $333/year/developer mark... if you used Microsoft technologies. I agree with the parent poster -- the wording and intent of this 'deal' are very, very different, and a bit in…

Microsoft is still going to make a fist full of money licensing the software that will have to run on the end customers production server. The $999 is only for development license.

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#18

Post by timwiseman »

rksprst wrote: post #14
amalcon wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The developers using open source solutions might be of the class "I'm using opensource solutions because they're better in this case," who Microsoft isn't targeting with this thing. They might be of the class "I'm using opensource solutions because there's no difference in quality, and the opensource stuff is cheaper." Microsoft is trying to make the decision harder for these people, but they're still not really the…

I'm one of those people and am happily using Microsoft products through BizSpark to develop web apps. Yes, I could use python with django or php with mysql (and have in the past); but I can build products better and faster with asp.net/c# (it's what I know and like best). And now that I don't have to pay huge licensing fees before I make a profit I can do that.

It can be a good deal.

Personally, I use both MS and FOSS products extensively. I am a huge fan of Python and it is my primary scripting language, but my main career is as an MS SQL Server DBA, and I think that for many applications (not all) it compares quite favorably with mysql and oracle.

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#19

Post by thismat »

Everyone fails to mention now much more advanced and nicer developing in VS is compared to any other platform. It's worth the money for a copy if you're a serious developer looking to use .NET, it's worth it even more now that there is little initial overhead.

No, I don't work exclusively in .NET, I work in a variety of platforms, but now I have yet another service to offer clients and potential clients that is cost effective.

Does everyone think that no matter what you're automatically locked into having only one stack to work from? Why not use whatever is ideal for the job at hand?

EDIT: Also, you don't have to hate on Microsoft anymore, that's very 2003, instead of focusing on what is the negative, let's instead consider the positive moves they've made, and the quality development environment they've come up with.

Re: Dear Developers, We Think You’re Idiots, XOXO...Microsoft

#20

Post by nopassrecover »

moe wrote: post #16
nopassrecover wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone at Microsoft could seriously believe that a developer would base their entire business/consultant career on an unchecked belief that these near-free licences never expired. I think it's much more likely that they are trying to eliminate one reason new businesses/consultants may decide against using Microsoft tech (which their market research may have yielded). If they can make Microsoft tech acce…

that's a big step towards growing their dev popularity Looks more like a last straw to me. There's simply nothing they could realistically offer at this point to lure the web community into their walled garden. Dozens of OSS stacks are competing for mindshare. Microsoft is not even playing.

ASP.NET MVC devastates all web platforms I've dealt with but rails. I realise it's a personal preference thing but you should look into it - it's open source, they got prominent community figures to design it and it lets you use C# (a great growing language) online properly without worrying about ASP.NET crap.
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