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There Is No Maker Movement in China

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Re: There Is No Maker Movement in China

#41

Post by icebraining »

ewzimm wrote: post #36
zamfi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did we read the same article? I think Shirky is saying that "Maker culture" in the US (and Canada, etc) is dominated by people doing stuff mostly in their spare time, being self-congratulating, and looking up to the occasional person able to make a career from "Making". In contract, he says, to China, where this activity does exist but is dwarfed by the actual people who Make Stuff who are far more competent than the…

You're right, but you're not going far enough. He says Chinese makers have been doing it so long it no longer resembles what Americans would recognize as such. American Makers generally don't strip junkyards for raw materials to manufacture into screws. He's saying the American Maker movement is an infant version of what the Chinese are doing, and that the only way to really comprehend how different they are is to de…

American Makers generally don't strip junkyards for raw materials to manufacture into screws.

My first thought was, "of course not, because Chinese companies sell screws for a lower price than it would cost to travel to the junkyard". At least, it makes sense to me that a glut of cheap stuff would eliminate any practical motivation for "making", leaving only the people who 'make' for pleasure.

A second thought was, "what junkyards?" I'm not an American, I'm European, but as far as I know there's no such thing here, at least of electronics. Everything must be recycled or at least processed by licensed organizations, there are no accessible deposits of that stuff, as far as I know.

Re: There Is No Maker Movement in China

#43

Post by Animats »

This is about Shenzhen, not China. Shenzhen is the world center of electronics manufacture. Those stores aren't there for people doing one-offs. They're the supply chain for smaller manufacturers. If there's a huge stack of Blackberry-like keyboards, that's because there's someone very nearby assembling the finished device.

There used to be places in the US like that, focused on specific consumer product areas. Lower Manhattan for garments, Trenton, NJ for minor tablewear, Pittsburgh PA for heavy steel items, North Carolina for wooden furniture, and Silicon Valley for ICs. Once the Interstate Highway System was built, and UPS and FedEx really go their act together, there was less concentration. China's government is trying to spread things out more, building cities in the interior provinces, building up the expressway system, and offering companies incentives to move. This goes against a long history of discouraging long supply chains. For centuries, inter-provincial trade was discouraged, and there are remnants of that today.

Re: There Is No Maker Movement in China

#44

Post by taurath »

chaostheory wrote: post #18

I strongly disagree with this post and the author's opinions on Chinese culture. He's missing something really big that's a core of Chinese culture. > the "We here in the Maker movement could not be more pleased with ourselves" vibe. This is another of way of saying that we enjoy making here beyond earning a living. Yes it's work, but it's also recreation and art. In places like SV and NY, people make because mainly…

> The main reason I've always remembered this man is because he's one of the few Chinese people in China (that I'm aware of) who actually enjoys making for the sake of making, and not just as a livelihood.

China has 1.35 billion people, and it seems incredibly unimaginative and frankly egotistic to think that you can make generalizations about overall Chinese culture and then just call it a day. The fact is that even "maker" culture in the US where its currently being celebrated (because it makes people money) is made up of a very small percentage of people working in North America - you would not meet nor have heard of a large group of people "making things for the sake of making" in China but it doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Re: There Is No Maker Movement in China

#45

Post by eru »

chaostheory wrote: post #32
benbreen wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That link is great. And please do expand on this! I'd love to read more about this topic. It would make an interesting contemporary counterpart to Kenneth Pomeranz's "The Great Divergence," where he explores why an Industrial Revolution almost (bit didn't quite) took place in the Yangzi Valley as well as the late 18th c. English Midlands. It's an interesting read, even if some of it has been contested: http://press.p…

I'd love to but I don't have time and there's a lot of articles and content for this that already exists. The gist of it all is that China is a low trust society. Everyone has a price and rules are only rules unless you have the resources to bend them for yourself. Yes this happens in Western culture as well, the big difference is the both degree and how prevalent it is. e.g. it is much harder to bribe a police offic…

It's instructive to compare overseas Chinese cultures. Eg Singapore has a well rooted rule of law, yet old school Chinese business men there still are still coloured by the points chaostheory made.

Re: There Is No Maker Movement in China

#46

Post by chaostheory »

taurath wrote: post #44
chaostheory wrote: post #18

I strongly disagree with this post and the author's opinions on Chinese culture. He's missing something really big that's a core of Chinese culture. > the "We here in the Maker movement could not be more pleased with ourselves" vibe. This is another of way of saying that we enjoy making here beyond earning a living. Yes it's work, but it's also recreation and art. In places like SV and NY, people make because mainly…

> The main reason I've always remembered this man is because he's one of the few Chinese people in China (that I'm aware of) who actually enjoys making for the sake of making, and not just as a livelihood. China has 1.35 billion people, and it seems incredibly unimaginative and frankly egotistic to think that you can make generalizations about overall Chinese culture and then just call it a day. The fact is that even…

> China has 1.35 billion people, and it seems incredibly unimaginative and frankly egotistic to think that you can make generalizations about overall Chinese culture

Ok I'm open to being wrong. How about proving me wrong? What parts of my description of Chinese culture are wrong? For one thing it's a pessimistic society hence the photocopy culture (why take a crazy risk for something unknown and original when I can just use someone else's safe and proven ideas?) and lack of open source (why share when I don't immediately benefit while others will for free?).

> The fact is that even "maker" culture in the US where its currently being celebrated (because it makes people money) is made up of a very small percentage of people working in North America

I agree about the small and minority part, people here are mostly about consumption and that needs to change. However, I strongly disagree about the 'because it makes people money' part. You're confusing the West with China. On a whole, people in the maker culture do it for the love and not as a job or lucrative opportunity. Most of the things being made seem unwanted and not polished for the mass market. Have you looked at Make, Instructables, or any of the other maker communities. People share their plans and designs. People do it for fun. They also make stuff as a way of rebelling against set institutions and consumption. (Maybe this is another strike against Chinese culture? Overall they are used to obeying 'emperors', while our culture is used to a near constant state of rebellion against old norms.) Making money for the majority of this idea tribe is mostly an afterthought. This is way different in China.

About the only thing I can think of in China's defense on this issue is that I'm guessing more people and a larger percentage of the population have the ability to make stuff as opposed to people over here which is probably due more to necessity than personal preference. EDIT: One last edit, there is one more thing that I can think of where people in China Make more due to love and pride and not mainly for money: things related to their space program.

Re: There Is No Maker Movement in China

#47

Post by darkmighty »

potatolicious wrote: post #37
reedlaw wrote: post #12

There is a downside to hacking-as-livelihood. Many workers are overworked. They hack for a living, but seldom have time to hack for fun. This is especially true among software developers. There are far fewer activities organized around programming than in the West. Occasionally there are weekend hackathons, but few professional programmers have the heart to participate. They are looking to spend time with family or e…

Doing it for a living certainly does take some of the fun out of it, and overworking in particular is both common and unhealthy. That said, I don't think the presence of hackathons (or other such "scene" events) should be taken as evidence of the existence of a hacking community (or lack thereof). Part of the point the author makes is that, unlike in the West, hacking/making is not a big deal . It's not a subculture…

It's hard to argue with both socializing around and celebrating creativity. Maybe a little less fanfare would be due, but your argument wasn't very convincing overall.

Re: There Is No Maker Movement in China

#48

Post by eru »

jessaustin wrote: post #3

The cybermart description matches exactly my memory of Sim Lim Square from when I lived in Singapore, except that place is immense and you could get the best naan you've ever had in the basement.

Sim Lim tower is actually better for maker stuff than Sim Lim square. The two are just across the street from each other.

(I hope I'm not mixing them up.)

Re: There Is No Maker Movement in China

#49

Post by crahrah »

taurath wrote: post #44
chaostheory wrote: post #18

I strongly disagree with this post and the author's opinions on Chinese culture. He's missing something really big that's a core of Chinese culture. > the "We here in the Maker movement could not be more pleased with ourselves" vibe. This is another of way of saying that we enjoy making here beyond earning a living. Yes it's work, but it's also recreation and art. In places like SV and NY, people make because mainly…

> The main reason I've always remembered this man is because he's one of the few Chinese people in China (that I'm aware of) who actually enjoys making for the sake of making, and not just as a livelihood. China has 1.35 billion people, and it seems incredibly unimaginative and frankly egotistic to think that you can make generalizations about overall Chinese culture and then just call it a day. The fact is that even…

It's because of comments like this that it's almost impossible to have a critical conversation about culture.

The parent comment is describing a cultural trope that frames the way people behave in that part of the world. There is a lot of pressure to work towards making money. That doesn't mean 100% of people are necessarily following the priorities set out by their society but it does mean that it makes a maker culture much more difficult there. It's inherently counter-cultural.

Re: There Is No Maker Movement in China

#50

Post by reedlaw »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #16
reedlaw wrote: post #12

There is a downside to hacking-as-livelihood. Many workers are overworked. They hack for a living, but seldom have time to hack for fun. This is especially true among software developers. There are far fewer activities organized around programming than in the West. Occasionally there are weekend hackathons, but few professional programmers have the heart to participate. They are looking to spend time with family or e…

Its not that bad here. Saturdays aren't work days anymore for most professionals like they were in the 90s.

Yes, Saturdays are not "required" work days for white collar workers, but overtime is the norm and often approaches 60 hours. For blue collar workers I've seen 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year. Yep, not a single day off despite having national mandatory vacation days.
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