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Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

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141–150 of 154 posts

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not "truth" though, that's "reality" or "the physical world" and the two notions are quite different.

Beliefs are what we use to model how the world is and what the results of actions and experiments will be. Reality is what actually determines those results, regardless of what we might believe. Truth is then the set of beliefs about the world that accurately model reality. And I'll say it again, the scientists who spend decades picking things to pieces are the ones who end up with the most accurate beliefs. They fin…

>Truth is then the set of beliefs about the world that accurately model reality.

That's just one of the definitions of truth, and a quite naive one at that. Not just philosophy, even epistemology have not been using this for ages.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strange ritualistic culture is merely a means by which Zen propagates itself (forward momentum in time) and not the "thing" itself. In my own words you should meditate because with practice one builds a refuge within stillness. Knowledge of this refuge changes the way you feel about circumstances and mental phenomena (motion). The change just feels right, like a lessening of burden, but it takes practice, that's…

Just as a thought experiment: if you could take a pill that did all this for you, would you still do the practice?

zen or meditation, is not just about developing a capability. With a pill, or drugs/steriods, you can gain something...but what is the use of all this, if you dont gain the wisdom (the ultimate end goal, which you usually get by walking the path. )

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#143
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zen is meditation first school of Buddhism. You must learn to do zazen (zen meditation). In other words, sit down and shut up. If you want to become Buddha, do what Buddha did and don't just listen and think about what he said. I'm myself a Zen Buddhist, I train with a teacher and have spend time zen training in a zen temple and attend sesshins regularly. I'm also very secular and atheist person who don't like organi…

I read a book a while ago about hynduism that said that buddists don't get it: Yes, budda achieved "illumination" by "sitting down and shutting up" (meditanting), but that is not, by any means, the only way to achieve illumination. I think the author was that Osho guy...

buddha knew how to shut up, unlike osho. osho were alive, he would endorse my comment :)

the smart thing about buddha is he kept the discourse always on the root ("dukkha" , look it up). It's very easy to loose one's way, which osho did, if you see his life's progression.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#144
post #11

"Well, there is Sitting Zen (zazen, meditation), there is Walking Zen. Oh, and then, of course, especially in the West, there is Talking Zen. No good." Many Zen practitioners have received their first contact with zen trough Alan Watts. He was really good writer. But eventually you must realize that he was philosopher, alcoholic and religions scholar who looked Zen from the outside. Talking and thinking about Zen is…

Apparently You and the author haven't haven't heard of the Rinzai school of Zen, which is not a Western invention. You're espousing quite a narrow point of view of a philosophy that is about supplanting dualistic closemindedness.

For people who are put off by ceremony and do not find long periods of sitting meditation (40 minutes or more) particularly useful, check out the Rinzai school of Zen. Shorter periods of sitting meditation, more emphasis on thinking critically about koans and "dharma combat" -- critical discussion. Rinzai abhorred ritual and ceremony for its own sake, so less emphasis on that.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Practitioners of Zen Buddhism believe that enlightenment is transmitted from one who is enlightened to one who is not. With only very rare exceptions, it requires an authority to transmit. People who think they're practicing Zen without a trained instructor are just deluding themselves.

Who transmitted to Sidhatta Gotama?

It depends on who you ask. The common historical narrative is that Chan Buddhism developed out of a mixture of Nepalese Buddhism and Chinese Taoism. The idea being that the Buddhist monks visiting China from India were interpreted through a lens of Taoism. This then turned into Chan Buddhism, and was transmitted to Japan where it was then known as Zen Buddhism.

If you take this viewpoint, then you might say that Zen and what Siddhartha Gautama achieved were not the same thing.

However, most practitioners of Zen refute this and say that what Zen is, and what Siddhartha Gautama achieved are the same thing. This is the view that Wong Kiew Kit states in The Encyclopedia of Zen(referenced above).

People like Kit believe that Siddhartha Gautama discovered enlightenment on their own, and that enlightenment is the exact same kind of enlightenment as what modern Zen masters discover.

To quote myself now, "With only very rare exceptions, it requires an authority to transmit." It is not unheard of for students of Zen Buddhism to achieve enlightenment on their own.

Bankei, a famous 17th century Japanese Zen master, is recorded as having achieved enlightenment while watching a bloodied ball of phlegm slide down a paper wall. The story goes that he was so frustrated with the fake Zen masters in Japan at the time, that he sat on a mountain top until he first achieved tuberculosis and almost achieved starvation. Zen was so debased in Japan at the time that this was the only way for him to achieve it. All the other masters were fakes.

Among modern Zen masters it is understood that what Gautama Buddha achieved and what Bankei achieved are the exact same thing. That it was not transmitted to them is irrelevant, but it should be noted that this type of self-realization is extremely rare in Zen history.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Practitioners of Zen Buddhism believe that enlightenment is transmitted from one who is enlightened to one who is not. With only very rare exceptions, it requires an authority to transmit. People who think they're practicing Zen without a trained instructor are just deluding themselves.

> People who think they're practicing Zen without a trained instructor are just deluding themselves. How can a new practitioner know if the instructor is actually enlightened or is only saying they are enlightened?

That is a really good question, and a question that people agonize over constantly.

When Zen was associated with swordsmanship and Bushido in Japanese culture they simply used to wait until the battle was over. Who ever was left standing was clearly a master. Those who got stabbed obviously didn't know Zen.

But not all Zen masters know how to fight. My recommendation to anyone interested in studying Zen is to track down and read biographies of celebrated Zen masters. When you're reading them look at how these celebrated masters challenged their teachers to prove they were worthy. These people are constantly messing with each other.

A part of what fascinates me about studying Zen is its ability to impart useful knowledge via anecdote and narrative. History probably added some embellishments, but that's part of the fun.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#147
post #6
post #3

From the article: "The world is not a logically consistent one, but a profoundly paradoxical one. Again, this is illustrated in science, which shows that two things can be one at the same time — light, for instance, acts as both a particle and a wave." I don't understand the need for constantly interspersing an otherwise flowing article with references to science. It feels like the author thinks that the authenticity…

It is fairly common in zen publications to point out apparent exceptions to an otherwise binary system (i.e. Logical). It isn't seeking validation from science it is invalidating science as the be-all of understanding our existence. Outside of zen (though very closely related). Phenomenology deals with this Subject/Object paradox our thoughts/language/science revolves around, and how it comes up short it describing s…

In this case I read that purely as saying "It's okay for there to be contradictions - life really is that way, even if you look at science."

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#148
post #55

If you're interested in understanding zen but don't know where to start, "The Book" by Alan Watts is a fantastic SHORT read that will give you a powerful framework from which to build your meditative practice, and hopefully structure a happier, more fulfilling lifestyle. To appeal to the western mind, here are some tangible benefits I have achieved(And you can too) through meditation and zen: * More appreciation for…

I would add the free, short, book "Mindfulness in Plain English". It changed my life. Here is the PDF: http://www.urbandharma.org/pdf2/Mindfulness%20in%20Plain%20E...

Before anyone gets too far in - that's just a preview, there are a about 60 pages cut out of the middle.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#149

Zen is interesting. While J.D. Salinger embraced Zen only to give it up later in life to pick up Advaita Vedanta. I have come across someone even suggesting that Zen caused him to get depressed.

I'm a meditator, and I have a theory that may apply here...

Meditation is essentially about seeing reality as it is, and if you have a sucky life, then it may seem that meditation is making your life worse and causing you to be depressed. It's not that meditation is making it worse, but that you are simply becoming more aware of the things that are making you unhappy. So it seems to get worse before it gets better, as they say.

Also, I should say that I don't want to oversell meditation -- I think meditation can sometimes cause real problems for people (especially if you tend to have an addictive personality, and you have no teacher or a teacher who isn't very experienced).

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beliefs are what we use to model how the world is and what the results of actions and experiments will be. Reality is what actually determines those results, regardless of what we might believe. Truth is then the set of beliefs about the world that accurately model reality. And I'll say it again, the scientists who spend decades picking things to pieces are the ones who end up with the most accurate beliefs. They fin…

> Truth is then the set of beliefs about the world that accurately model reality. That's just one of the definitions of truth, and a quite naive one at that. Not just philosophy, even epistemology have not been using this for ages.

It's a correspondence definition. And actually I understand correspondence has been one of the most popular theories of truth since Plato and Aristotle, continuing to the present.
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