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Bitcoin falls below $300, lowest in 11 months

bitcoinwisdom.com

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Re: Bitcoin falls below $300, lowest in 11 months

#71
post #6

What are the major reasons to be bullish on bitcoin right now? Not sarcasm, totally serious. I've owned a small amount of bitcoin for a while and have followed the market from a far. This observation is highly anecdotal, but I just haven't seen many signs of serious traction over the last six or nine months (i.e. post a ton of the initial retailers partnering to accept bitcoin, Coinbase raising their monster round, e…

Personally, I think there's still more (potentially much more) downside in the short-term, but it's hard to catch a falling knife. As an investment vehicle, it's highly speculative and there's still a many existential threats that could cause Bitcoin value could completely collapse (something is fundamentally broken with the protocol that can't be rolled back/forked/or patched, instability/attacks on the mining network that make mining untenable, aggressive governmental illegalization/prosecution of crypto-currencies).

However, I'm pretty bullish about Bitcoin mid-term, and here's why:

* The blockchain is pretty revolutionary technology that allows transactions between untrusted decentralized parties. There's almost no end of interesting decentralized architecture/applications that can be built on it. Blockchains are secured by computation - the Bitcoin network is by far (magnitudes) the most secure network and security (mining difficulty/hashrate) continues to grow[1]. While there are some interesting altcoins being developed (Ethereum is probably the most promising), it seems like Bitcoin will be the best blockchain to use if you have something you want to build anytime soon. There's a lot of interesting developments (side chains, tree chains, etc that will let devs use the network more easily)

* Even comparing to a year ago, the amount of infrastructure: exchanges, wallets, storage, payment processors, ATMs, being built has been staggering. I think w/ the way Coinbase, BitPay, and Circle are working we're just getting to a point where a regular consumer might even consider using the Bitcoin (think the net in '94/'95). There's still a lot of basic infrastructural improvements that need to happen.

* Along with that, I think that cdixon's post on "native Bitcoin apps"[2] is right on. International microfinance (as an extension/evolution of international remittance) and decentralized marketplaces can be do things that have traditionally been too hard/expensive to be worthwhile (again, the parallels to the story of the Internet). These are billion dollar opportunities.

* To some degree, this shuffle of weak hands/speculators/early adopters cashing out is probably a better thing in the long term. You're seeing some big players doing some major market manipulation (this drop was primarily driven by a 30K BTC sell wall) - still, overall volatility continues to decline[3] and Bitcoin's suitability as a transactional instrument is improving. Personally, I consider the early-adopter/"dark matter" coins as one of the most problematic aspects (and existential threats) to Bitcoin. Last year, Risto Pietilä ran some analysis on the leaked Gox data and extrapolated estimates that basically 1-10K people own 50% of all Bitcoins. The day that Satoshi's coins start moving and the sky doesn't fall I'll feel better, but there are enough of these dark matter coins that Bitcoin may never get out from under the threat of extreme manipulation. Once crypto-currency infrastructure gets hammered out, I think there will probably be a mass migration to something that doesn't end up making a handful of crazy people trillionaires, but maybe people won't care (or prices become irrelevant as BTC is used primarily as a payment rail/tx processor; the floor will be based on money velocity and mining cost). I continue to be surprised as I've started following Bitcoin more closely.

So, you probably don't want to put your life savings in, but it's probably worth investing some time at least to pay attention to what's popping out of the crypto-currency world.

[1] https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate

[2] http://cdixon.org/2014/10/04/some-ideas-for-native-bitcoin-a...

[3] http://btcvol.info/

[4] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316297.0

Re: Bitcoin falls below $300, lowest in 11 months

#72

The easier it gets to buy Bitcoin, and accept Bitcoin, the worse it will be. Even if you wanted to spend Bitcoin, you had to think ahead. Now Circle lets you buy within minutes (in most cases) of setting up your account. On the other side of things, Bitpay and Coinbase let merchants convert back to USD (or other currency) right away. So it's possible to do "just in time Bitcoin": Bitcoin is merely the payment protoco…

The price can't be irrelevant, miners are going to change their activity based on it. It also doesn't make so much sense that companies helping people complete transactions in situations where traditional methods are expensive/slow/regulated will successfully continue to avoid regulation or bother to give miners a share.

But that regulation would have to happen globally then no?

Re: Bitcoin falls below $300, lowest in 11 months

#73
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, calling bs on this. Your last four comments all start with "I once was an intern" - and my guess is that's why your alias is "I.o.w.a.i." Did all this stuff really happen? And to you? Because from your past comments, you were an intern in the "golden 90's" and in this scenario, in 2014.

Haha, great find :-) They're all very good stories! Keep them coming, iowai.

Indeed - the stories are straight out of a Ben Mezrich book about silicon valley.

We've got a crashed Mercedes, a breakup, a bank account illegally held in bitcoin, skateboarding in the hallways, DJ parties in the office, prostitutes galore, and a 22 year old founder.

...and that's just the first four comments.

Re: Bitcoin falls below $300, lowest in 11 months

#74
Bitcoin should have been the petty cash of the Internet. People should be buying music tracks, in-game items, and junk food from vending machines with Bitcoins. But, as discussed in a previous topic, it doesn't do small or quick transactions very well.

That may not necessarily be a bad thing. Enthusiasm for micropayments, which predates the Internet (look up Ted Nelson and Xanadu) comes from the people who want to collect them. There's no vast consumer demand for the ability to send $0.10 over the Internet. Even the big players couldn't make that happen. Beenz, Microsoft Points, and Facebook Credits were all failures.

The big run-up from $100 to $1100 last year was because, for a while, it was possible to easily and legally bypass China's exchange controls by buying Bitcoins with yuan and selling them for dollars or euros. Then the People's Bank of China cracked down, and that bubble popped. We're still in the aftermath of that event.

As a speculation, Bitcoin is zero-sum. There's no productive activity, and no profits. All gains by winners come from losses by losers. Much effort is spent by the Bitcoin community recruiting more losers.

Re: Bitcoin falls below $300, lowest in 11 months

#76
post #74

Bitcoin should have been the petty cash of the Internet. People should be buying music tracks, in-game items, and junk food from vending machines with Bitcoins. But, as discussed in a previous topic, it doesn't do small or quick transactions very well. That may not necessarily be a bad thing. Enthusiasm for micropayments, which predates the Internet (look up Ted Nelson and Xanadu) comes from the people who want to co…

Was part of the rise last year due to MtGox's increasingly desperate market manipulation? I remember reading the theories, but don't know if a better picture has developed since then.

Re: Bitcoin falls below $300, lowest in 11 months

#77
post #61
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it bizarre to use it as an investment choice? If you have a sense for what makes a technology prevail and think that bitcoin will, it isn't a big leap to look at the value that can be transferred through bitcoin and say "in the success scenarios, it will have to grow to be many times larger." Like any investment, you have to be prepared to be wrong, though.

That's remarkably similar to saying: 'If you have a sense for what makes a trade deficit occur and think that one will, it isn't a big leap to look at the value that can be transferred through international trade and say 'in the scenarios where I am right, it will have to grow many times larger''. The analysis above is completely correct... and also available to precisely everyone, and is how the price is set globall…

Bitcoin is more than a currency, so reducing opinions about it solely to "speculating on currency" is disingenuous.

Bitcoin is a technology. I've made my career by picking winning open source technologies and betting my career on them. If you think some people who spend their lives predicting day-to-day price movements are better at making technology predictions than I am, I question your assumption. There's a reason I don't speculate in international currency, but that I am willing to express my fiscal-opinion on bitcoin.

I also question your assumption that these groups are anywhere near representing the primary driving forces in the thinly traded bitcoin market at this point.

There is no such thing as a nerds-only price for any investment in so much as you believe a given market is efficient. Fundamentally, what I would argue about investing in bitcoin is that small differences in the estimate of the success scenario produce wide differences in fair value estimates of this asset (because the outcomes possibilities are asymmetrical), so if you have a strong opinion on the different weighting of the possibilities it is no more unreasonable than buying an individual stock, and in fact may be the more rational choice.

Re: Bitcoin falls below $300, lowest in 11 months

#78
post #14

I once was an intern in a venture capital funded startup where the CEO decided to hold most of the companies cash in Bitcoin. I think it was in early 2014 or so, when the price fell like mad and he was in deep shit. Im not sure if anybody up to that date knew about the Bitcoin investment. He was a nervous wreck. Close to suicide. For about a week, he brought a stuffed animal into the office every day. And carried it…

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin falls below $300, lowest in 11 months

#79
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming this Glen Beckian Armageddon, I doubt you'll be able to use Bitcoin much at all, as it requires internet access and electricity, both could experience disruptions in the chaos that will surely ensue when world's leading economy collapses (remember, nobody (seriously) lost faith in the USD even during the 2008 meltdown, so nothing short of a '29-like collapse will do it). If that world-changing catastrophe ha…

In retrospect, it seems that 2008 was the same order of magnitude as 1929. Sure, the safety net was there to prevent bread lines, but the economic damage was pretty close. Europe's lack of recovery is especially alarming. Which only reinforces your point, we've gone through one of the worst recession/depressions of all time, and USD survived. I really can't imagine what would change it other than insanely reckless mo…

There are only three scenarios that would alter the USD reserve status: 1) gradual erosion over decades, via the rise of the yuan for example; 2) if the QE / stimulus era explodes and the globe sinks into an even more protracted recession (ie if the Keynesians were wrong), in which case the US government will print incredible sums; 3) if the US initiates a war against the major European powers or China, that could open a fault-line in the global economy (this is another hyper unlikely scenario)

Re: Bitcoin falls below $300, lowest in 11 months

#80
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

25 years ago, the same could be said of international phone calls. The world is getting smaller and smaller, there will be a point in the future where getting goods/services from someone across the ocean is as common as sending an email.

And I can already pay for this with my credit card today.

That is a horrible counter-argument. What about the people on the other side of the transaction who (today) might not even have access to a bank account, let alone an international credit card?

Also, tell me how do you hire someone working in a country with strong capital controls (e.g, Argentina). What good is your credit card if a contractor says "sorry, to use PayPal/Visa/Mastercard/Amex there is a 40-50% surcharge"?

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