Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

aeon.co

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 154 posts

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#51

Post by wyager »

>Truth is not to be found by picking everything to pieces like a spoilt child

What an idiotic attitude. Empiricism ("picking everything to pieces") is one of the few ways to find truth. Attempting to discredit it by comparing it to a "childish" activity speaks to the lack of arguments against it.

All of the Zen/Buddhist blog posts I've seen on HN have been intellectually lazy and/or dishonest, relying on pseudo-science/quantum mysticism ("light, for instance, acts as both a particle and a wave", as some sort of poorly thought out attack on the PEM) and misleading analogy.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#52

Post by monting »

Watts gives great introductions to Zen concepts for the western audience, his The Way of Zen is a fantastic book for that purpose.

If you find the "theoretical/analytical" side of Zen interesting, look into Seung Sahn's teachings. I recommend the book Dropping Ashes on the Buddha. I've yet to come across more direct pointing that's in the form of text.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#53

Post by lindblombr »

ajani wrote: post #28
1stop wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is fairly common in zen publications to point out apparent exceptions to an otherwise binary system (i.e. Logical). It isn't seeking validation from science it is invalidating science as the be-all of understanding our existence. Outside of zen (though very closely related). Phenomenology deals with this Subject/Object paradox our thoughts/language/science revolves around, and how it comes up short it describing s…

I re-read the article. Nowhere is it clear that there is even an attempt at invalidating science. He really does seem to be trying to use science to shore up his ideas. Another excerpt: "This is the basis of Zen itself — that all life and existence is based on a kind of dynamic emptiness (a view now supported by modern science, which sees phenomena at a subatomic level popping in and out of existence in a ‘quantum fr…

He certainly does take a potshot at reductionism and science's prolific use of that thinking:

--- While it is refreshing that Zen philosophy is supported in many ways by present scientific knowledge, it is also a critique of scientific thought. The scientific tradition requires things up to be cut up — both mentally and physically — into smaller and small pieces to investigate them. It suggests that the only kind of knowledge is empirical and that the rigid laws of scientific method are the only kind that are valid.

Zen implies that this is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater — scientific thinking might be immensely useful, but it also does violence to a meaningful conception of life. It tends to screen out the essential connectedness of things. We live in an imprecise world. Nature is extraordinarily vague. Science promotes the idea of hard, clear ‘brute facts’ — but some facts are soft. A ‘cutting-up’ attitude to life gives us dead knowledge, not live knowledge.---

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#55

Post by orasis »

Lambdanaut wrote: post #49

If you're interested in understanding zen but don't know where to start, "The Book" by Alan Watts is a fantastic SHORT read that will give you a powerful framework from which to build your meditative practice, and hopefully structure a happier, more fulfilling lifestyle. To appeal to the western mind, here are some tangible benefits I have achieved(And you can too) through meditation and zen: * More appreciation for…

I would add the free, short, book "Mindfulness in Plain English". It changed my life.

Here is the PDF:

http://www.urbandharma.org/pdf2/Mindfulness%20in%20Plain%20E...

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#56

Post by DanielKehoe »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #9

Zen is interesting. While J.D. Salinger embraced Zen only to give it up later in life to pick up Advaita Vedanta. I have come across someone even suggesting that Zen caused him to get depressed.

In my experience, Zen and Vipassana take you "up and out", which may be why they become a path of ascetism and negation. Advaita is a more embodied practice. Advaita Vedanta (also known as nondualism) has been called the "cream of the Vedas." Zen is more like skim milk (also nutritous but not as tasty). Awakening or enlightenment is actually far more common than literature leads people to believe. Most people just continue to live ordinary lives (enlightenment doesn't give you superpowers or turn one into a saint). Some become teachers and you can find them in most large cities (and on YouTube). The "Buddha at the Gas Pump" site collects lots of interviews (batgap.com) and there's even a snarky ratings site at Spiritualteachers.org. Not for everybody, but then what is?

I used to work in the enlightenment industry.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#57

Post by orasis »

nabla9 wrote: post #48
yoodenvranx wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how else do I do Zen? (That is a serious question!)

Zen is meditation first school of Buddhism. You must learn to do zazen (zen meditation). In other words, sit down and shut up. If you want to become Buddha, do what Buddha did and don't just listen and think about what he said. I'm myself a Zen Buddhist, I train with a teacher and have spend time zen training in a zen temple and attend sesshins regularly. I'm also very secular and atheist person who don't like organi…

"I'm also very secular and atheist person who don't like organized religion."

Its fantastic that it works for you. For me, This is exactly why I couldn't handle Zen. It feels too much like the hierarchical church patriarchy.

Due to this I've gravitated towards the Pragmatic Dharma crowd which tends to be a mix of Theravada and Advaita practices (though rejecting Advaita view).

Some resources for the looks-like-religion allergic:

http://kennethfolkdharma.com/quick-start-guide/ http://www.dharmaoverground.org http://awakenetwork.org

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#58

Post by orasis »

blueprint wrote: post #33
vidarh wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But meditation is not the way to solve problems in yourself and it is therefore not a way to learn the art of living. The proof is that there is no clear definition of what life is through anyone who teaches meditation. That's not a proof of anything. You do not need a clear definition of the goal for a method to help you approach the goal; you need a method that helps you approach the goal. I am also curious as wh…

> That's not a proof of anything. You do not need a clear definition of the goal for a method to help you approach the goal; you need a method that helps you approach the goal. Suppose you say you're practicing and teaching mathematics but you cannot tell me what mathematics is. How can I trust that you know anything about what you are teaching? > I am also curious as why you believe meditation is not a way to solve…

"However, I don't know you yet, and it would be a mistake of mine to share his real teaching with you if I don't confirm how genuine you are."

What a crock of horse shit. For other people's sake I really hope you don't have any students.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#59

Post by orasis »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #9

Zen is interesting. While J.D. Salinger embraced Zen only to give it up later in life to pick up Advaita Vedanta. I have come across someone even suggesting that Zen caused him to get depressed.

You can absolutely become depressed through meditation practices, but typically this is a sign that you have made some progress but are not breaking through.

Intuitively changing techniques (for example, to Advaita) can be a good strategy.

If you're aware of the states of mind associated with higher concentration, you can recognize negative feelings as a sign of progress and push through.

http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/2011/06/12/the-dark-night/

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#60

Post by smutticus »

It needs to be stated that most practitioners of Zen Buddhism, in both the east and the west, consider Alan Watts to be misinformed about Zen. Some might even call him a charlatan.

I studied religious history as an undergrad and one conversation specifically comes to mind. I asked my Japanese humanities professor what most eastern Zen practitioners thought of western Zen practitioners. She responded by saying that most western practitioners were well respected by their eastern counterparts, with the exception of Alan Watts. She called him out by name.

Over the years I've encountered Watt's speeches and writings and never really gotten much out of them. He just comes across as someone who doesn't understand Zen Buddhism. He's also a prosletyzer, which as a concept, derives explicitly from the west.

Most westerners who were talking about Zen in the 1960's and early 70's didn't understand it. For example, the beat writers terribly understood many concepts of Zen. So it shouldn't be surprising that Alan Watts didn't get it either.

None of this is meant to detract from people who have read Alan Watts and exxperienced some increase in well being as a consequence. It's just that increased well being should not be central in ones' desire to pursue Zen. So if reading Alan Watts makes you feel good, then by all means keep reading Alan Watts. Just understand that you're receiving something which is packaged incorrectly. It has the wrong label on the package.

If, like me, you're interested in learning about Zen from a scholarly perspective than I recommend you start with reading stories of celebrated monks first. Then move on to more philosophical tomes later.

This book is fun to read and will give you an idea of Zen's history. http://www.amazon.com/Crazy-Clouds-Radicals-Rebels-Reformers...

This book provides a good introductory text about Zen. Be careful though, because Wong Kiew Kit believes that Taoism had no influence on Chinese Buddhism. This view contradicts what most historians think, but is in line with what a Zen practitioner would say. http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Book-Zen-Wong-Kiew/dp/0974995...

You can approach Zen as a practitioner, a religious scholar, a philosopher, or a historian. The important thing is you approach it knowing where you come from, and be clear to yourself about your intentions.

Post reply on HN