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Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

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Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#31
post #11

"Well, there is Sitting Zen (zazen, meditation), there is Walking Zen. Oh, and then, of course, especially in the West, there is Talking Zen. No good." Many Zen practitioners have received their first contact with zen trough Alan Watts. He was really good writer. But eventually you must realize that he was philosopher, alcoholic and religions scholar who looked Zen from the outside. Talking and thinking about Zen is…

So how else do I do Zen? (That is a serious question!)

Zazen (za: seated, zen:meditation) is central to nearly every school of zen Buddhism. The name of zen alludes to this, and Watts' translation of chan/dhyuna as emptiness rather then meditation is unusual. Zen emerged in response to certain schools of bhudhism which put emphasis on making offerings and gaining merit over meditation. So in some respects it was de-empasizing religious ritual as the article alludes (though I feel authentic zen is very much a religion, albeit without a creator), but this was to put the emphasis back on meditation. Watts' de-emphasis of zazen in zen is therfore quite ironic. To do zen, set some time aside each day to sit in a dignified pasture and place your awareness on your breath. As your mind wanders, notice this and bring your attention back to your breath. Repeat a hundred thousand times. Over time, the emptiness of these thoughts becomes apparent and your attachment to them weakens. But, don't attach to this emptiness either.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#32
Another unexpected philosopher used the term "double bind", if not in a more scientific way, but later meaning it in a broader sense; Gregory Bateson the anthropologist.

Watts, Huxley, McKenna and Bateson are to me the most important readings a live could have.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#33
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm asking OP about the definition of the term philosophy, i.e. what does the term philosophy indicate? If someone teaches the 'art of living' then they also must teach the principle of how a certain kind of result in life turns out according to what kind of causes lie on what kind of ways of life. But meditation is not the way to solve problems in yourself and it is therefore not a way to learn the art of living. Th…

> But meditation is not the way to solve problems in yourself and it is therefore not a way to learn the art of living. The proof is that there is no clear definition of what life is through anyone who teaches meditation. That's not a proof of anything. You do not need a clear definition of the goal for a method to help you approach the goal; you need a method that helps you approach the goal. I am also curious as wh…

> That's not a proof of anything. You do not need a clear definition of the goal for a method to help you approach the goal; you need a method that helps you approach the goal.

Suppose you say you're practicing and teaching mathematics but you cannot tell me what mathematics is. How can I trust that you know anything about what you are teaching?

> I am also curious as why you believe meditation is not a way to solve problems in yourself. My personal, direct experience is that it does, so I have to conclude that your claim is false based on that alone, and to me this is also direct confirmation that your "proof" is nonsensical.

The burden of proof is on the person who says that something exists, not the person who says that they have not yet found evidence of the thing's existence. If you have some evidence in your life quality that meditation has helped you, we should confirm what the concrete benefit is. No one can speak about what they do not know, and only those who do not know are silent in the face of a fair question. Over time, as I get to know you and see how you live, I get to confirm that if you cannot show proof of what you claim is inside you then it means you are telling untruth.

> Are you claiming this did not come from Gautama Buddha? Or are you claiming what it describes is not enlightenment? Or are you claiming it does not include meditation as one of the means? ("right mindfulness, right concentration" is what most people would consider to refer to meditation practice, and as far as I can tell it is well supported by other parts of the Pali canon that meditation is what this refers to). Or something else?

What I claim here is that there is a huge difference between the practice of meditation that people are learning and teaching in modern times, and the specifics of the method of self-reflection that Gautama Buddha guided his disciples to make efforts to undergo. However, I don't know you yet, and it would be a mistake of mine to share his real teaching with you if I don't confirm how genuine you are.

> If you mean that he did not describe it as sufficient by itself to attain enlightenment, then I believe you are right about what he said. Then again, I think a substantial proportion of people who find buddhist philosophy interesting does not believe in nirvana. When I meditation, it is not with that as a goal.

To be clear, no, I do not mean that meditation is not sufficient by itself. I mean that meditation is not something that makes you closer to Enlightenment. Enlightenment has very strict preconditions and meditation is not a teaching that you can practice which helps you fulfill those conditions.

Your usage of the term 'nirvana' is interesting. I would like to mention to you that the term 'nirvana' is only misunderstood by modern Buddhists to mean 'cessation of rebirth'. If Buddha taught 'cessation of rebirth' then he was teaching the way that people can die forever. However, that is not what a Buddha teaches people. He taught people to save themselves and to live well. He taught how to bless your endless future lives through what exists in reality. That's why there's a big difference between the upward socioeconomic mobility of someone who learned Buddha's teachings correctly versus someone who didn't. However, a big problem is the fact that it's impossible for people who are untruthful to understand Buddha's teaching. They cannot recognize it due to their lack of virtue and they discard it easily. So I would like to see how you respond before telling you more.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the OP but i would like to pitch in with my thoughts -the object of Buddhism is the philosophy of Buddhism, and that object is the art of living; the art of living is what they would say at a Vipassana retreat. Zen - you take Buddhism and chuck away the books, while trying to find the experiential basis of that object.

I'm asking OP about the definition of the term philosophy, i.e. what does the term philosophy indicate? If someone teaches the 'art of living' then they also must teach the principle of how a certain kind of result in life turns out according to what kind of causes lie on what kind of ways of life. But meditation is not the way to solve problems in yourself and it is therefore not a way to learn the art of living. Th…

I misunderstood and was answering the question how I literally read it; how I saw what Buddhist philosophy was and how it related to Zen. You've misunderstood my perspective though - I can entertain what I believe the object of Buddhism to be without subscribing to it. I may have done Vipassana but I don't believe it to be an answer. I wasn't even looking for answers; it's another experience on the journey (I did get lot's from it though). However, that is what Buddhism - as I understand it - purports to be: the art of living, the middle way and finding balance (through that you find liberation). Zen tries to find that level but does away with the scripture, the individual tries to find it through experience.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#35
post #11

"Well, there is Sitting Zen (zazen, meditation), there is Walking Zen. Oh, and then, of course, especially in the West, there is Talking Zen. No good." Many Zen practitioners have received their first contact with zen trough Alan Watts. He was really good writer. But eventually you must realize that he was philosopher, alcoholic and religions scholar who looked Zen from the outside. Talking and thinking about Zen is…

So how else do I do Zen? (That is a serious question!)

You are.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#36
post #21
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The text promotes keeping an open mind and to be humble. Often, The exception to a common rule are dismissed as minor and without effect which allows us to keep our certainties. The light example in this context, is well choosen : it is fundamental, factual and therefore cannot be dismissed easily. The scientific aspect is secondary to those advantages.

> The light example in this context, is well choosen : it is fundamental, factual and therefore cannot be dismissed easily. I'm curious, have you actually studied quantum mechanics? Because the impression I get from people who have is that the "light is a particle and a wave" thing is pretty much bullshit. (Which isn't the same thing as false , but more like "not actually a thing that you tell people if you want them…

I'll chime in here as someone who studied to become a physicist: it's not bullshit; the truth about the nature of matter is too complex (and weird) for someone without a deep understanding of mathematics to understand. Particle/wave duality is a useful abstraction that relates the math to something humans can grasp intuitively.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#37
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how else do I do Zen? (That is a serious question!)

It's a practice more than an analysis, so to do it you practice Zen exercises. The central exercise is meditation. Thinking about meditation is like thinking about push-ups. A little analysis helps to refine the form, but it's not the point.

Practice leads to Zen. Practice isn't Zen. But yeah otherwise i agree.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#38
post #3

From the article: "The world is not a logically consistent one, but a profoundly paradoxical one. Again, this is illustrated in science, which shows that two things can be one at the same time — light, for instance, acts as both a particle and a wave." I don't understand the need for constantly interspersing an otherwise flowing article with references to science. It feels like the author thinks that the authenticity…

I had the exact same reaction.

It actually feels un-Zen like for him to obsess over that. It sort of illustrates his example of dukkha. On one hand he tells us that Zen rejects the need for logical consistency. On the other hand, he keeps using science as validation. Even if there are paradoxes or contradictions in science, scientists are constantly working to resolve them because they don't accept the idea of an inconsistent world. His constant return to science is an example of dukkha. Just let it go man...

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#39
post #28
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is fairly common in zen publications to point out apparent exceptions to an otherwise binary system (i.e. Logical). It isn't seeking validation from science it is invalidating science as the be-all of understanding our existence. Outside of zen (though very closely related). Phenomenology deals with this Subject/Object paradox our thoughts/language/science revolves around, and how it comes up short it describing s…

I re-read the article. Nowhere is it clear that there is even an attempt at invalidating science. He really does seem to be trying to use science to shore up his ideas. Another excerpt: "This is the basis of Zen itself — that all life and existence is based on a kind of dynamic emptiness (a view now supported by modern science, which sees phenomena at a subatomic level popping in and out of existence in a ‘quantum fr…

There are spiritual observations that precede science. Saying that there isn't scientific evidence for anything is simplying stating that there isn't scientific evidence for something YET. And, showing how science has met spiritual observations, down the road, lends credence to the validity of the earliest explorations of existence.
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