Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

aeon.co

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 154 posts

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#21

Post by philh »

LBarret wrote: post #12
ayx wrote: post #3

From the article: "The world is not a logically consistent one, but a profoundly paradoxical one. Again, this is illustrated in science, which shows that two things can be one at the same time — light, for instance, acts as both a particle and a wave." I don't understand the need for constantly interspersing an otherwise flowing article with references to science. It feels like the author thinks that the authenticity…

The text promotes keeping an open mind and to be humble. Often, The exception to a common rule are dismissed as minor and without effect which allows us to keep our certainties. The light example in this context, is well choosen : it is fundamental, factual and therefore cannot be dismissed easily. The scientific aspect is secondary to those advantages.

> The light example in this context, is well choosen : it is fundamental, factual and therefore cannot be dismissed easily.

I'm curious, have you actually studied quantum mechanics? Because the impression I get from people who have is that the "light is a particle and a wave" thing is pretty much bullshit. (Which isn't the same thing as false, but more like "not actually a thing that you tell people if you want them to have a better understanding of the nature of reality".) But I haven't studied it myself.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#22

Post by bayesianhorse »

I don't believe in attributing the beginning or end of a depression a specific cause. Turns out that an individual depressive episode - regardless of the medical classification - can end at any time. Even medication is hard to pinpoint as the cause for a particular "coming out of depression". Only clinical studies show improved quality of life, for the individual patient, no definite conclusions can be made (usually).

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#23

Post by bayesianhorse »

I don't believe in attributing the beginning or end of a depression a specific cause. Turns out that an individual depressive episode - regardless of the medical classification - can end at any time. Even medication is hard to pinpoint as the cause for a particular "coming out of depression". Only clinical studies show improved quality of life, for the individual patient, no definite conclusions can be made (usually).

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#25

Post by nemo »

yoodenvranx wrote: post #17
nabla9 wrote: post #11

"Well, there is Sitting Zen (zazen, meditation), there is Walking Zen. Oh, and then, of course, especially in the West, there is Talking Zen. No good." Many Zen practitioners have received their first contact with zen trough Alan Watts. He was really good writer. But eventually you must realize that he was philosopher, alcoholic and religions scholar who looked Zen from the outside. Talking and thinking about Zen is…

So how else do I do Zen? (That is a serious question!)

It's a practice more than an analysis, so to do it you practice Zen exercises. The central exercise is meditation. Thinking about meditation is like thinking about push-ups. A little analysis helps to refine the form, but it's not the point.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#26

Post by 300bps »

bayesianhorse wrote: post #22

I don't believe in attributing the beginning or end of a depression a specific cause. Turns out that an individual depressive episode - regardless of the medical classification - can end at any time. Even medication is hard to pinpoint as the cause for a particular "coming out of depression". Only clinical studies show improved quality of life, for the individual patient, no definite conclusions can be made (usually)…

I felt the same thing. There are likely to be as many people that think their depression ended when they started wearing a magnetic bracelet or began taking zinc supplements or any number of other coincidental occurrences that happened shortly before depression abated.

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#27

Post by vidarh »

blueprint wrote: post #20
charliefg wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the OP but i would like to pitch in with my thoughts -the object of Buddhism is the philosophy of Buddhism, and that object is the art of living; the art of living is what they would say at a Vipassana retreat. Zen - you take Buddhism and chuck away the books, while trying to find the experiential basis of that object.

I'm asking OP about the definition of the term philosophy, i.e. what does the term philosophy indicate? If someone teaches the 'art of living' then they also must teach the principle of how a certain kind of result in life turns out according to what kind of causes lie on what kind of ways of life. But meditation is not the way to solve problems in yourself and it is therefore not a way to learn the art of living. Th…

> But meditation is not the way to solve problems in yourself and it is therefore not a way to learn the art of living. The proof is that there is no clear definition of what life is through anyone who teaches meditation.

That's not a proof of anything. You do not need a clear definition of the goal for a method to help you approach the goal; you need a method that helps you approach the goal.

I am also curious as why you believe meditation is not a way to solve problems in yourself. My personal, direct experience is that it does, so I have to conclude that your claim is false based on that alone, and to me this is also direct confirmation that your "proof" is nonsensical.

> And I think it will be important for you to know that Gautama Buddha did not teach that meditation is the way to attain an Enlightenment.

What is your basis for this claim? And what are you saying?

This is from the Nagara Sutta [1] (the last two paragraphs, describing the Noble Eightfold Path):

> "In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&-form... consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path.

> "Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications. Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings."

Are you claiming this did not come from Gautama Buddha? Or are you claiming what it describes is not enlightenment? Or are you claiming it does not include meditation as one of the means? ("right mindfulness, right concentration" is what most people would consider to refer to meditation practice, and as far as I can tell it is well supported by other parts of the Pali canon that meditation is what this refers to). Or something else?

If you mean that he did not describe it as sufficient by itself to attain enlightenment, then I believe you are right about what he said. Then again, I think a substantial proportion of people who find buddhist philosophy interesting does not believe in nirvana. When I meditation, it is not with that as a goal.

[1] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.tha...

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#28

Post by ajani »

1stop wrote: post #6
ayx wrote: post #3

From the article: "The world is not a logically consistent one, but a profoundly paradoxical one. Again, this is illustrated in science, which shows that two things can be one at the same time — light, for instance, acts as both a particle and a wave." I don't understand the need for constantly interspersing an otherwise flowing article with references to science. It feels like the author thinks that the authenticity…

It is fairly common in zen publications to point out apparent exceptions to an otherwise binary system (i.e. Logical). It isn't seeking validation from science it is invalidating science as the be-all of understanding our existence. Outside of zen (though very closely related). Phenomenology deals with this Subject/Object paradox our thoughts/language/science revolves around, and how it comes up short it describing s…

I re-read the article. Nowhere is it clear that there is even an attempt at invalidating science. He really does seem to be trying to use science to shore up his ideas. Another excerpt:

"This is the basis of Zen itself — that all life and existence is based on a kind of dynamic emptiness (a view now supported by modern science, which sees phenomena at a subatomic level popping in and out of existence in a ‘quantum froth’)."

Re: Zen Buddhism and Alan Watts

#30

Post by mping »

yoodenvranx wrote: post #17
nabla9 wrote: post #11

"Well, there is Sitting Zen (zazen, meditation), there is Walking Zen. Oh, and then, of course, especially in the West, there is Talking Zen. No good." Many Zen practitioners have received their first contact with zen trough Alan Watts. He was really good writer. But eventually you must realize that he was philosopher, alcoholic and religions scholar who looked Zen from the outside. Talking and thinking about Zen is…

So how else do I do Zen? (That is a serious question!)

Find a teacher. Humbly ask for instructions. Follow instructions.
Post reply on HN