Some ideas for native Bitcoin apps • Hacker News Board

Re: Some ideas for native Bitcoin apps

#31

Post by x0x0 » Sun, Oct 05, 2014, 3:51 AM UTC

eric_bullington wrote: post #28

eli wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also makes it suddenly expensive to run a decent sized email list. For security announcements, say.

No, the idea is that users would be able to set an incoming fee per email address, including a default fee for unknowns. Users would simply whitelist email subscriptions at 0 fee. In fact, this could likely be done completely automatically beyond the initial setup (and then only if you want to diverse from the defaults).

And recipients could set it at 0 for mailing lists, or any email with which he or she has conversed.

Re: Some ideas for native Bitcoin apps

#32

Post by Retric » Sun, Oct 05, 2014, 3:56 AM UTC

mappum wrote: post #24

Animats wrote: post #17

Bitcoin can't handle micropayments. The block chain is limited to about 7 transactions per second, and every node has a full copy of the block chain, so traffic goes up roughly as the square of usage. There's a minimum fee for each transaction (if you want it confirmed in any reasonable length of time) and it's currently about $0.30. That's more than many merchants pay to process a credit card transaction. Nor can Bi…

Actually, Bitcoin can handle micropayments extremely well by using micropayment channels. https://bitcoinj.github.io/working-with-micropayments In short, the payer sends a signed transaction to the payee every time they want to increment the payment, but the payer does not broadcast the transaction to the network until they want to finalize it. To prevent double-spending, the payer and payee first set up a 2-of-2 mul…

That does not increase the number of independent transactions that can take place. You can't have multiple recipients: "this does not allow you to send micropayments at high speed to different recipients" And you can't have multiple senders. You just get to do incremental transfers.

In the end bitcoin needs to handle around 1,000 independent transactions a second to see widespread adoption and even 100,000 transactions a second is low for some use cases. NYSE for example peaks well above that.

Re: Some ideas for native Bitcoin apps

#33

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 05, 2014, 3:56 AM UTC

mappum wrote: post #24

Animats wrote: post #17

Bitcoin can't handle micropayments. The block chain is limited to about 7 transactions per second, and every node has a full copy of the block chain, so traffic goes up roughly as the square of usage. There's a minimum fee for each transaction (if you want it confirmed in any reasonable length of time) and it's currently about $0.30. That's more than many merchants pay to process a credit card transaction. Nor can Bi…

Actually, Bitcoin can handle micropayments extremely well by using micropayment channels. https://bitcoinj.github.io/working-with-micropayments In short, the payer sends a signed transaction to the payee every time they want to increment the payment, but the payer does not broadcast the transaction to the network until they want to finalize it. To prevent double-spending, the payer and payee first set up a 2-of-2 mul…

[deleted]

Re: Some ideas for native Bitcoin apps

#34

Post by paulsutter » Sun, Oct 05, 2014, 4:45 AM UTC

Item 2, allocating resources for a true mesh network is a cool idea. It's clean, a b2b transaction for a specific standardized service: forwarding or storing data. It does not sound like a legal minefield. Am I too optimistic? Hats off to cdixon.

The other four I don't understand, can someone help me out?

There is no technical reason that existing money transfers get delayed or expensive because of international borders. The issues are regulatory [1]. How does bitcoin solve that? Same with payments and micropayments. There's nothing technically difficult about moving small or large amounts of money between people. Compliance with regulation is where all the trouble comes in [1], and Bitcoin is not miraculously exempt from those regulations either.

Am I missing something? I'm really curious. Like most technology folks, I /want/ to be more excited about bitcoin.

[1] https://www.wepay.com/api/payments-101/payment-regulation-ch...

Re: Some ideas for native Bitcoin apps

#35

Post by topynate » Sun, Oct 05, 2014, 4:48 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #32

mappum wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, Bitcoin can handle micropayments extremely well by using micropayment channels. https://bitcoinj.github.io/working-with-micropayments In short, the payer sends a signed transaction to the payee every time they want to increment the payment, but the payer does not broadcast the transaction to the network until they want to finalize it. To prevent double-spending, the payer and payee first set up a 2-of-2 mul…

That does not increase the number of independent transactions that can take place. You can't have multiple recipients: "this does not allow you to send micropayments at high speed to different recipients" And you can't have multiple senders. You just get to do incremental transfers. In the end bitcoin needs to handle around 1,000 independent transactions a second to see widespread adoption and even 100,000 transactio…

You can chain microtransactions atomically, so with a star graph of payment channels you can route micropayments through a central processor without introducing trust - taking the number of channels from O(N^2) to O(N) in the number of participants. I imagine a dynamic network of payment processing addresses could be chained in the same way, in order to provide a verified path between two participants using different channel operators.

The above is subject to malleability-resistant payment channels, which will require a patch like Peter Todd's CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY (https://github.com/petertodd/bips/blob/checklocktimeverify/b...)

Re: Some ideas for native Bitcoin apps

#36

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 05, 2014, 5:07 AM UTC

[deleted]

Re: Some ideas for native Bitcoin apps

#37

Post by barnaby » Sun, Oct 05, 2014, 5:18 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #32

mappum wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, Bitcoin can handle micropayments extremely well by using micropayment channels. https://bitcoinj.github.io/working-with-micropayments In short, the payer sends a signed transaction to the payee every time they want to increment the payment, but the payer does not broadcast the transaction to the network until they want to finalize it. To prevent double-spending, the payer and payee first set up a 2-of-2 mul…

That does not increase the number of independent transactions that can take place. You can't have multiple recipients: "this does not allow you to send micropayments at high speed to different recipients" And you can't have multiple senders. You just get to do incremental transfers. In the end bitcoin needs to handle around 1,000 independent transactions a second to see widespread adoption and even 100,000 transactio…

Today. Yes, today that's the limitation. But don't confuse the current stage of development for the future product. When twitter launched it couldn't handle much, today it's got phone-network level stability. Bitcoin will get there too; and faster than you think.

Re: Some ideas for native Bitcoin apps

#38

Post by everettForth » Sun, Oct 05, 2014, 5:19 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #17

Bitcoin can't handle micropayments. The block chain is limited to about 7 transactions per second, and every node has a full copy of the block chain, so traffic goes up roughly as the square of usage. There's a minimum fee for each transaction (if you want it confirmed in any reasonable length of time) and it's currently about $0.30. That's more than many merchants pay to process a credit card transaction. Nor can Bi…

Bitcoin has some limitations with microfinancing.

1. Transaction times are long (6 blocks to confirm)

2. Transaction Fees of 0.0001 BTC could likely incur for transactions smaller than 0.01 BTC. This is about a $0.03 USD transaction fee for transactions under $3.30.

My solution to these limitations is to trade BTC on a distributed, low-transaction fee, fast confirming exchange.

That is why today I launched a BTC to Stellar gateway for my p2p microlending startup at https://onecred.com

I expect to see a lot of things people never imagined were possible once bitcoin's store of value combines with a distributed exchange that is good at the things that consumers need (speed, low fees, security, decentralization).

Re: Some ideas for native Bitcoin apps

#39

Post by barnaby » Sun, Oct 05, 2014, 5:24 AM UTC

uptown wrote: post #8

artia wrote: post #4

Also worth reading: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8410986 Two compelling blog posts by two Bitcoin thought leaders at the same time. Multiple discovery at its best

Also interesting that these posts are coming at a time when Bitcoin's value has dipped to its lowest level in recent months.

Bitcoin has lost some value recently, yes, but what it's bought with that loss is increased merchant adoption. Currently merchants instantly sell bitcoin which causes the downwards pressure on the price you've been seeing. However, as the utility continues to grow this trend will very likely reverse.

Re: Some ideas for native Bitcoin apps

#40

Post by kolev » Sun, Oct 05, 2014, 5:26 AM UTC

eric_bullington wrote: post #26

Animats wrote: post #17

Bitcoin can't handle micropayments. The block chain is limited to about 7 transactions per second, and every node has a full copy of the block chain, so traffic goes up roughly as the square of usage. There's a minimum fee for each transaction (if you want it confirmed in any reasonable length of time) and it's currently about $0.30. That's more than many merchants pay to process a credit card transaction. Nor can Bi…

Your statement that Bitcoin cannot handle micropayments is absolutely incorrect. Are you familiar with payment microchannels? With microchannels, Bitcoin solves the micropayment problem like it solves other, related problems: with simple p2p network tech combined with cryptography. In short, Mike Hearn and others figured out how to exploit Bitcoin's native scripting capabilities to support microtransactions. They cal…

This is getting ridiculous. So much patchwork and overcomplications show how unfit for the real world Bitcoin is. Just drop Bitcoin for Stellar and problem solved. But, wait, all that vested interest and money in Bitcoin keeps people stick to Bitcoin and reject anything else.