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The Duct Tape Programmer

joelonsoftware.com

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Re: The Duct Tape Programmer

#31

Post by vsiva68 »

tdavis wrote: post #23

You know, it is a great book and I love Jamie's interview and the "duct tape" style was used well at Netscape, but just because the guy doesn't writing unit tests or use higher-level abstractions doesn't automatically make him better than other types. Some of the smartest programmers I've met have been religious about TDD and strict formatting and commenting and as a result maintain and work on some incredibly large…

My sentiments exactly. Joel's article is just unnecessarily long with very little real content. There are many different ways to develop - Some people like C++, some don't, some do TDD, some don't.

You can never say this is the ONE true way to develop. Do what works for you, but just be aware of other points of view.

Re: The Duct Tape Programmer

#32

Post by asmosoinio »

KevinMS wrote: post #13

"One principle duct tape programmers understand well is that any kind of coding technique that’s even slightly complicated is going to doom your project." Like writing a custom compiler for your web app? http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/09/01b.html After he jumped that shark I don't read anything he writes anymore.

Joel did not write, not imply, that he himself is a duct tape programmer.

In fact he made it quite clear in the last paragraph that these duct tape programmers are a rare breed. Maybe you never read that far though.

Re: The Duct Tape Programmer

#33

Post by kentosi »

KevinMS wrote: post #13

"One principle duct tape programmers understand well is that any kind of coding technique that’s even slightly complicated is going to doom your project." Like writing a custom compiler for your web app? http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/09/01b.html After he jumped that shark I don't read anything he writes anymore.

That article was from 2006. I'm sure that his (and many other people's) viewpoints change over the corse of 3 years.

Re: The Duct Tape Programmer

#34

Post by ptomato »

bootload wrote: post #14

"He is the guy you want on your team building go-carts, because he has two favorite tools: duct tape and WD-40." This phrase comes from watching too much Eastwood (Gran Torino ~ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1205489/ ) The idea behind it is you can jury-rig/fix almost anything with WD40 & duct tape alone without the need for fancy expensive tools.

The use of duct tape and WD40 as basic tools certainly far predates that movie. Per the ancient quote:

“All of life’s problems can be solved with two things—duct tape and WD40. If it moves and it shouldn’t, you need duct tape. And if it doesn’t move and it should, you need WD40.”

Re: The Duct Tape Programmer

#35

Post by Virax »

Jamie Zawinski is not "hard at work building the future". According to his own website, he is managing the DNA lounge, and the last thing of any substance he worked on was a program to delete silence from mp3 streams (see http://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/src/archiver/). He claims a copyright date of 2001-2006 for this program, which, after a quick skim, appears to be high quality. In my opinion, he is a talented programmer who has this to say about the software industry:

    (1999+) But now I've taken my leave of that whole sick,
            navel-gazing mess we called the software
            industry. Now I'm in a more honest line of
            work: now I sell beer.
So, I suppose, Joel is right, in a roundabout way:

Selling beer => flirtation => sex => sperm + egg = Building a future human being!

But seriously, Joel is on crack.

Re: The Duct Tape Programmer

#36

Post by tsally »

Virax wrote: post #35

Jamie Zawinski is not "hard at work building the future". According to his own website, he is managing the DNA lounge, and the last thing of any substance he worked on was a program to delete silence from mp3 streams (see http://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/src/archiver/ ). He claims a copyright date of 2001-2006 for this program, which, after a quick skim, appears to be high quality. In my opinion, he is a talented p…

Once you build something as important as Netscape Navigator and cash out for a good chunk of money, I think it's ok to do whatever you want. Building something for the future doesn't have to be a lifelong thing.

Re: The Duct Tape Programmer

#37

Post by smiler »

KevinMS wrote: post #13

"One principle duct tape programmers understand well is that any kind of coding technique that’s even slightly complicated is going to doom your project." Like writing a custom compiler for your web app? http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/09/01b.html After he jumped that shark I don't read anything he writes anymore.

A custom "compiler" for me is a bit of a stretch. It's essentially a code generation tool where you code in a language similar to VBScript and it could output php or classic asp. It's not a custom C / C++ compiler or anything complicated like that.

So it's not completely crazy.

Re: The Duct Tape Programmer

#38

Post by abalashov »

I am not a fan of this kind of extreme maximalism; surely there has got to be a decent compromise? That's assuming, of course, that purely utilitarian pragmatism vs. lofty, academic architecture idealism is a valid dichotomy, and that there don't exist a variety of third ways and composite profiles. Of course, any useful generalisation that posits a continuum can be torn down, but I really think that in this case it needs doing.

There has got to be a better way than being a "duct tape programmer." It seems to me that one can practice good design, architectural grace, and hold true to a variety of other tendencies that seem theoretically and aesthetically appealing (the latter is very important; every good programmer I have ever met sees an artistic aspect to programming, even if it is not necessarily the central or principal one - it is a craft) without being the guy that never actually puts out any concrete deliverables.

I think this is just an angry, bitter overreaction - and a very understandable one that I fully endorse - to the dogmatism of many test-driven development acolytes and pig-headed "patterns" people.

Re: The Duct Tape Programmer

#39

Post by SapphireSun »

Tichy wrote: post #25
tdavis wrote: post #23

You know, it is a great book and I love Jamie's interview and the "duct tape" style was used well at Netscape, but just because the guy doesn't writing unit tests or use higher-level abstractions doesn't automatically make him better than other types. Some of the smartest programmers I've met have been religious about TDD and strict formatting and commenting and as a result maintain and work on some incredibly large…

"I'd kill for a decent test suite and fully-automated deployment. Kill!" Then why don't you write one? I suspect you don't have the time - well back then when you created the system, you did not have the time either. So the bottom line again seems to be: it is not actually THAT important. Otherwise you would make the time.

That's not true. Just because he never gets the chance to doesn't mean that if he had it, it wouldn't make him more efficient. If you're bailing out a ship, you might not have time to run and get a motorized pump, but you sure as hell would like one!

Re: The Duct Tape Programmer

#40

Post by SapphireSun »

pavelludiq wrote: post #21

Duct tape is a great metaphor. Duct tape was one of my favorite toys as a child. My dad was always mad at me for wasting it. But i can't help it if i want to build a tower from straws and duct tape, a tool thats as flexible as duct tape is empowering for a 10 year old. I propose duct tape become the new hacker symbol! :D

;-) I think many other engineering disciplines would be upset if we took it all for ourselves - especially mechanical engineers.
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