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Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

timeshighereducation.co.uk

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Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#481

Post by mcv »

thejdude wrote: post #448
2ion wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's not much general ed to speak of If by 'general ed' you are referring to optional classes that are not necessarily related to your core subject or electives, I would like to say that you have very much the option (and in most reformed Bachelor-type programs it's a requirement) to take such classes and choose among many types of seminars ranging from communication and negotiation coaching to optional language…

That's the thing. German unis aren't schools; in fact the whole point (or at least original point before we got degree inflation) of our "high school" (Gymnasium) degree is to prepare students to be able to go on with a higher education on their own . If you want a more school-like experience, there are Fachhochschulen (more technical schools, "FH") instead of universities. Even in Germany many students complain that…

Sounds similar to the Dutch situation. No handholding in university. Lots of opportunity to fuck up all by yourself. I never understand people who call it "school", because it really isn't. If that's what you want, there's also the "hogeschool" which also counts as higher education, but practical, professional education, whereas university is called "scientific education". The actual level of science varies a lot of course, but mainly you've got to do more yourself.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#482

Post by mcv »

Kurtz79 wrote: post #124
nhaehnle wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social mobility in Germany is very low, doing consistently worse than e.g. the Scandinavian countries (I remember seeing sources claim that it is even worse than the US, but there seems to be no agreement on that). However, as far as education is concerned, it would be wrong to blame universities. The German school system is very stratified, "locking in" a child's destiny at a young age. Via parents who understand th…

Very low compared to what ? I would say that is lower compared to Scandinavian countries but generally high. From Wikipedia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Soc...

According to that graph, social mobility in Germany isn't lower than Scandinavia at all. It's lower than Denmark and Finland, but comparable to Sweden and Norway. Income inequality is higher, though.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#483

Post by Genmutant »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #480
Genmutant wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a dining plan?

When you live in a dorm on campus, you are required to buy a meal plan for meals, and they aren't cheap or flexible. This is why I couldn't afford to live in the dorms as an undergrad in America.

So a meal plan is like an subscription to meals? Why don't they sell it normally? How much is each meal with that plan? In our Mensa at the university we pay between 1.50 and 4€ per meal (exclusive drinks).

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#484

Post by awendt »

I'm surprised no one brought up the bigger picture of which types of education Germans pay for and which they don't.

While going to university has been free for a long time in Germany (and will be again according to this article), German parents pay for kindergarten and day care.

In most countries, it's the other way around and I'd gladly pay for my kids to go to university than pay for the much more basic education before primary school. I paid up to 500 Euros a months for my son's kindergarten. (This is is maximum amount, but that's another story...)

This is why I don't get that students were so eager to demonstrate against the introduction of tuition, claiming education is then reserved for rich people. The same argument could be brought up against payments for day care, but no one will acknowledge that. (I guess this is because students are willing to plan for family after the degree.)

Reversing this situation would result in better integration of kids from families with immigrant background which is a far better goal than to make higher education more accessible, regardless of money.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#485

Post by mcv »

thejdude wrote: post #446
superuser2 wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>dorms If efficiently managed, dorms shouldn't represent a significant burden on students above the price of living in off-campus housing. >restaurants Generally make a profit. >coffee shops Generally make a profit while employing unskilled students. >fitness clubs Okay, these are probably excessive, but fitness is fairly important. >green spaces everywhere I'd be really surprised if this accounted for an appreciable…

German here who also studied abroad for a year (US state college). Overall, there are many similarities, but also differences. I was surprised how freaking EASY everything was in the US university, compared to Germany. Multiple-choice tests, not much background knowledge assumed. Very school-like system (instead of assuming students will learn some of the necessary background at home). I've seen different German univ…

Buildings spread out through the city seems to be a product of having older universities. The oldest Dutch universities have that too, whereas newer universities tend to have most buildings concentrated on a campus. I know of only one that has on-site dorms (TU Twente), but most do have affordable student housing in the vicinity (though never enough for all students). There's usually a cheap, student-oriented sport center connected to the university.

University restaurants (also called "mensa" here) are pretty cheap, but quality is mediocre. Better cook your own dinner.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#486

Post by sveme »

awendt wrote: post #484

I'm surprised no one brought up the bigger picture of which types of education Germans pay for and which they don't. While going to university has been free for a long time in Germany (and will be again according to this article), German parents pay for kindergarten and day care. In most countries, it's the other way around and I'd gladly pay for my kids to go to university than pay for the much more basic education…

You are obviously right - kindergarten should be free for all. But you establish a false dichotomy: why exchange free university with free kindergarten? Why not have both? You could certainly argue with limited budget availability, but in the end it's a societal/political decision.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#487

Post by raverbashing »

thejdude wrote: post #454
Quanttek wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No. Most Germans don't even care for FB (or twitter). Or they use it with a limited purpose. They think it's silly. Not really, atleast from my experiences. Almost the complete youth & young adults atleast use Facebook and a considerable amount Twitter (more Twitter user, the older they get). Older adults and eldery only use FB/Twitter partially (I'd say 20%) and realtively inactive Though, yes, in Germany - on ave…

IME very many German people are on FB (but yes, many also aren't, because they don't care and have their circle of offline friends). Twitter, almost nobody. Among younger (20-30) Germans, I think almost everybody is on FB (and even more are on What's App).

Being on FB (usually with a false name) does not mean that they would have created it as it is

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#488

Post by flexie »

ctdonath wrote: post #215
flexie wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Germany couldn't have produced Facebook it's only because of the language. User content on facebook is mainly a written language thing, and it would have been hard spreading a website with mostly German content to English since so few Americans and brits speak German. On the other hand, most young Europeans speak English so Facebook had little trouble spreading from American universities to Europeans. Skype starte…

Apple didn't start with public funding. It was a hobby for a couple guys who sold their homemade computers at a club. Don't confuse the fact that, during startup, a business used available public funding as just another available opportunity to leverage, vs a business that never would have started/survived without public funding.

Yes they did receive government funding from early on.

Apple received early stage funding from the SBIC programme: http://www.sbia.org/?page=sbic_program_history

And, more importantly, many of the technologies used by Apple right from the first computers to the iphones were developed with government funding and used free of charge: http://money.cnn.com/video/technology/2013/10/24/t-iphone-go...

And I am not even talking about the later government subsidies from American states and from Ireland in the form of massive tax breaks. Nokia didn't get away with paying a 2 percent tax on its European profits (but probably received other government funding themselves along the way).

Similarly, the Google founders' work on the pagerank algorithms on Stanford was funded by a government entity, the National Science Foundation, and they were allowed to use it commercially free of charge. And Google too, has received massive tax breaks.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#489

Post by ctdonath »

flexie wrote: post #488
ctdonath wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple didn't start with public funding. It was a hobby for a couple guys who sold their homemade computers at a club. Don't confuse the fact that, during startup, a business used available public funding as just another available opportunity to leverage, vs a business that never would have started/survived without public funding.

Yes they did receive government funding from early on. Apple received early stage funding from the SBIC programme: http://www.sbia.org/?page=sbic_program_history And, more importantly, many of the technologies used by Apple right from the first computers to the iphones were developed with government funding and used free of charge: http://money.cnn.com/video/technology/2013/10/24/t-iphone-go... And I am not even talk…

Again: don't confuse use of available options including gov't funding, with likely failure if gov't funding wasn't available.

The Steves were highly motivated; lack of government funding likely would not have stopped Apple from existing much as we know it now.

Just because a party was involved doesn't make 'em indispensable.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#490

Post by [deleted] »

michael_fine wrote: post #413
skinnybatch wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 I remember my mother speaking to some college admissions person at a semi-prestigious school in Pennsylvania, many years back when I was in the throws of applying. When speaking to some admissions confusion with respect to my high school, the guy said, "Well frankly, it's not called the Ivy League because of its academics." That's always stuck with me. Athletic scholarships? You betcha. Academic scholarships? What…

Actually though, no schools in the Ivy League give athletic scholarships [1], and most college sports are revenue neutral. 1: http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/information/psa/index

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