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Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

timeshighereducation.co.uk

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Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't such a simple story. The current Scottish Government has been widely criticised by opponents for using cuts in the College budgets to fund their free tuition policy for Universities. As colleges and universities are, sadly, still stratified by class in the UK this could have a detrimental on effect for social mobility in Scotland. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-2387...

Interesting point. Genuine question: you don't feel that basically free degree courses are, with some individual cases to the contrary, sure, still a massive net benefit to social mobility?

Opponents argue that it is of a small net benefit to the middle classes and those who do well at school first time round.

They suggest that those who require to use college to gain entrance to university and those who cannot afford to be supported through four years of higher education (grants and loans being unable to cover living costs) are left out (along with young people who simply want to learn a trade) in favour of those that can afford it.

I, however, was very careful to not bring personal politics into this ;-)

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#472

Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university fees and social mobility? On one hand it seems obvious that if you reduce costs of attending university you remove a barrier that would prevent economically disadvantaged people from attending. But on the other hand, university students, especially those at the best universities disproportionately come from better economic backgrounds and t…

"In this case it doesn't seem fair to tax people who are poor to pay for something that is mainly of benefit to the rich." The idea is that people with better eductation will earn more and pay more taxes and this way they will give back the support the did get. Of course this does not work if rich people do pay less taxes than the poor. But we are not there yet in europe.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#473
post #267
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

personally I don't think universities is only for career ! people get more socialize ! get more experience ! and get more mature.

You can socialize and mature on the job too. I dislike this idea of University being some theme park for young adults where they can pretend they need some more maturing before they will become real adults. Nobody is giving slack to kids who did not managed to get to college. They are expected to be mature. I'm pretty sure college students are as capable as them.

There is an element of that. University tends to throw you into a group of people from different backgrounds (at least, compared to school) and forces you to live fairly intimately with them.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting point. Genuine question: you don't feel that basically free degree courses are, with some individual cases to the contrary, sure, still a massive net benefit to social mobility?

Opponents argue that it is of a small net benefit to the middle classes and those who do well at school first time round. They suggest that those who require to use college to gain entrance to university and those who cannot afford to be supported through four years of higher education (grants and loans being unable to cover living costs) are left out (along with young people who simply want to learn a trade) in favo…

Fair enough. FWIW I think we do need more of a focus on vocational training, apprenticeships, and that degrees-for-all isn't the right direction, per se. But I must admit I hadn't really been too aware that some folks were losing out in the "no tuition fees" thing. Never black and white is it...

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#475
post #464
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weren't protesting 1000 euros, they were protesting fees of any kind. The leap from "no fees" to "fees" the biggest of all.

It still seemed petty when that "biggest gap of all" has a monetary value of about 20 bucks a week. For a higher education, mind you. I am willing to bet that the average student tends to spend more over the weekend in various nightclubs. And that just made me wonder if they really value their weekly nightly outing more than their own education. I came to the conclusion that it just came down to something like "But t…

It could have been a single Euro and it would still be outrageous. I'm not aware of any country that did not raise the fees after introducing them. In fact, universities in Germany were generally free to set the fees as low as they want and nearly every single one of them set them to the maximum allowed by the bill.

It's a matter of principles. Introducing tuition fees at all means you're abandoning the idea of universities being open to everyone. Sure, you can subsidize those unable to afford the fees, but by adding such hurdles you effectively raise the barrier to entry.

And the claim that this would bring extra money is pretty naive. The idea was to shift the burden of maintaining universities from the general public (via taxes) to the students (via tuition fees) in order to be able to lower (or avoid raising) the public subsidies. It would have allowed the government to reduce the subsidies arbitrarily because the universities could still make up for the difference by raising the tuition fees.

Thinking that the money was needed is also pretty naive. The bill required universities to spend the money on improving the quality of education (e.g. more student tutors, better equipment, etc). The university I studied at spent the money on new buildings, including one purely administrative building that replaced the only major car park available to students in the vicinity of the main campus. But the vast majority of the money was never spent -- they only started shoving money into these building projects because they were threatened with being sued over keeping the money in the bank (to attract interest).

Oh, and at my university at least (University of Cologne), the invoices students received were accompanied by free advertising for the NRW.Bank (effectively a government-owned private company), offering a "special" loan with a slightly lower interest than other banks. The process for signing up was also very streamlined: they'd pay the tuition fees for you, you just pay the regular baseline fee (~280 EUR back then) as before and you could pretend the tuition fees don't exist until you've graduated and need to pay the loan (and accumulated interest) back. Very thoughtful of them, but also very devious.

It also didn't help that our principal tried to dispel the protesters by saying that every student could afford the tuition if only they drank one less beer per day.

But the primary reason student organizations found the tuition fees so appalling is the trend happening at the time: the switch to the BA/MA system, the reduction of high school from 13 to 12 years, the "Eliteuniversität" programme (which incentivised further shifting money from niche subjects to the more attractive ones (basically anything likely to receive outside funding from major corporations)) and the general "Verschulung" of higher education to make university degrees more useful for HR and less about real education or science, effectively turning universities into US-style diploma mills.

The original German ideal of university (compared to the more business-oriented Fachhochschule and the traditional IHK job training system or the craft Geselle/Meister systems) is the studium generale or studium universale. In other words: the renaissance man approach to science, striving to become a polymath by educating yourself to achieve wisdom and become a more informed citizen. That education should be open and available to all who seek it out.

The origin of this ideal is generally ascribed to Humboldt. The general trend of adapting the more "open" university system to the "needs of the economy" (this was a major selling point for the BA/MA switch back then) and thus further blurring the distinction between university and other forms of (job-related) higher education stands directly opposed to this ideal. Whether you think this ideal has any worth or not (or even whether it is remotely realistic or not), it was a major source of conflict during the protests.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, you don't really get what you pay for in the US either since the universities have become so good at sucking up more and more student loan money without really improving on their core mission of providing higher education. If you laser-focus on making money, then eventually you become pretty good at it. If you laser-focus on educating people, then eventually you become pretty good at it.

> If you laser-focus on educating people, then eventually you become pretty good at it. I don't think you can call putting 500 people in an amphitheater in front of a single person and a blackboard remotely "pretty good at educating". It's one of the worst ways ever to transmit knowledge. And it shows.

This is a myth. A common myth yet still unintuitively false.

I once reviewed statistical data for high school level success metrics across countries. It is statistically observable how small a correlation there is between class size and education quality

A good teacher can engage 50 students as easily as 500. Some of the best classes in my life have been in 200 people packed amphitheaters.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not so much anecdotal as circumstantial. If everyone was taking the loan, you probably would too. It is the same in England, were students took loans for 3,5k pounds a year and now even 9k a year. Now I am not saying that the British system is the ideal (pros and cons) but I can certainly provide some more anecdotal evidence of many people who study for free (in the Czech Republic) and are basically wasting the…

Maybe a free education, but add a screening process to measure the psychology of the student, help choose a profession or trade that will not be a waste of their time.

what an awful idea

maybe measure the shape of their head too, save time and send them straight to jail if they have criminal phrenology

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#478
post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There'll be a lecture twice a week (four "semester hours", 2 times 2 * 45 minutes) and a two semester hour exercise session. The lecture will be held by a professor [1]; the exercise session for undergraduate courses will generally be conducted by a TA in smaller groups. That sounds like an average course that I've taken at my university here in Norway.

Sounds like my experience in the United States as well.

I'm sensing a pattern...

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#479

Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany. Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms, restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises. I'm guessing most US…

To go into more detail, here's the typical lecture format at a German university (note that this is "typical", not universal, and professors have a lot of leeway in how they can structure their courses). There'll be a lecture twice a week (four "semester hours", 2 times 2 * 45 minutes) and a two semester hour exercise session. The lecture will be held by a professor [1]; the exercise session for undergraduate courses…

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Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big problem with this. Particularly with dining plans, many of which don't refund at the end of the term/academic year and are required for the dorms. You want to be thrifty and only spend 600 or the 800 you had this spring? Too bad, you're going to have to splurge the last 200 somehow or you're not getting it back.

What is a dining plan?

When you live in a dorm on campus, you are required to buy a meal plan for meals, and they aren't cheap or flexible. This is why I couldn't afford to live in the dorms as an undergrad in America.
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