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Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

timeshighereducation.co.uk

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Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#401

Post by DasIch »

dmix wrote: post #251
tyoma wrote: post #225

I see lots of envy from US and UK based people, but not any thought given to the great opportunity: Germany accepts international students. Why not go to a German university and get a quality education paid for by the German taxpayer? As a bonus, you'll get to learn German for free.

Is it even covered for international students? In Canada international students pay much higher rates for tuition. About $10k for a program that might cost Canadians $3k. It's a huge racket. I'd be surprised if Germans decided to do the same, as well as taxpayers being will to pay for foreigners education.

It is. Allowing international students to study "for free", is generally seen as an investment into getting more highly qualified immigrants as these students may stay in Germany or even if they leave after studying, they will probably retain some contact helping improve international relations.

Considering how Germany is developing demographically this is definitely necessary.

Also you have to keep in mind that we are talking primarily about fixed costs here. Having a few additional students, won't really change the costs. Apart from that living in Germany they will inevitably pay taxes, they will have to pay for health insurance etc. so at least in part they do indirectly pay for their tuition.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#402

Post by skinnybatch »

mathattack wrote: post #316
zwieback wrote: post #302

Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany. Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms, restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises. I'm guessing most US…

Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises. This pisses me off too. It's why I don't give money to my Sports Franchise undergrad.

+1

I remember my mother speaking to some college admissions person at a semi-prestigious school in Pennsylvania, many years back when I was in the throws of applying. When speaking to some admissions confusion with respect to my high school, the guy said, "Well frankly, it's not called the Ivy League because of its academics." That's always stuck with me. Athletic scholarships? You betcha. Academic scholarships? What are those?

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#403

Post by aidenn0 »

melling wrote: post #319
aidenn0 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter since Southern California isn't a political unit. Any significant rail improvements would require state and federal funding to be feasible.

First you use the argument that the entire United States is not as densely populated as Germany, which I pointed out is flawed. Now, you're trying some political tangent. First, we should agree that it is worth, or not worth, being built on technical merits then we can discuss the politics that follow. Jumping around in a scattershot discussion is not effective, unless your goal is to derail the conversation. Pun int…

I thought we were discussing why Germany has better passenger rail infrastructure, not whether there are technical merits for building it.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#404

Post by nekopa »

coryrc wrote: post #332
saool wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what The Market should be for, to make those jobs compensated attractively. Plus, people will be more likely to take a part-time job flipping burgers to fund their writing/music/open source project/whatever if they don't have pressure to pay back debt or don't have to worry about health insurance (another can of worms).

Why do they deserve the broadly desired services of doctors, nurses, professors, etc for free while doing very little for those doctors, nurses, or professors in return?

I would say they deserve them because we want to live in a 'society'. If they are contributing to society - even just by serving lattes or creating poetry to someone like me who desires caffeine and art, and I in return contribute something that doctors, nurses and professors want, then I think they deserve it.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#405

Post by [deleted] »

rbehrends wrote: post #362
zwieback wrote: post #302

Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany. Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms, restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises. I'm guessing most US…

To go into more detail, here's the typical lecture format at a German university (note that this is "typical", not universal, and professors have a lot of leeway in how they can structure their courses). There'll be a lecture twice a week (four "semester hours", 2 times 2 * 45 minutes) and a two semester hour exercise session. The lecture will be held by a professor [1]; the exercise session for undergraduate courses…

[deleted]

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#406

Post by sedachv »

justinlloyd wrote: post #389
rbehrends wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To go into more detail, here's the typical lecture format at a German university (note that this is "typical", not universal, and professors have a lot of leeway in how they can structure their courses). There'll be a lecture twice a week (four "semester hours", 2 times 2 * 45 minutes) and a two semester hour exercise session. The lecture will be held by a professor [1]; the exercise session for undergraduate courses…

I've attended four different higher education colleges and three universities in the UK, and two universities in the US. Mostly STEM, some business and law courses. My UK experience is pretty much in line with the above summary from my college life between 1986 and 1995. Lots of blackboard lectures, practical coursework where necessary, one, occasionally two exams per subject. Coursework grades determined whether you…

> The pace on the MBA could be described as "plodding" at best.

Mirrors my MBA experience at a Canadian university.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#407

Post by sanderjd »

toyg wrote: post #396
sanderjd wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring the made-up numbers, that means that 60% of people are contributing to the education of that 40%, unless those 60% of people are exempted from a certain kind of tax that the 40% have to pay, which is exactly what the thread starter was calling a "graduate tax".

> that means that 60% of people are contributing to the education of that 40% ... and? These are the future business and political leaders of their country. Don't they have an interest in educating them properly, so that they'll be ruled by competent people? Besides, some of them will have been "poor people" who managed to squeeze into that 40%. We are not talking about hypotheticals here: it happened in Britain for…

I don't necessarily disagree with you, just pointing out that if only 40% of the tax base uses a service, then 60% of the tax base is helping pay for it without directly using it. The indirect effects of those contributions are definitely more interesting!

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#408

Post by SebastianMerz »

ajmurmann wrote: post #290
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe a free education, but add a screening process to measure the psychology of the student, help choose a profession or trade that will not be a waste of their time.

In Germany you can in theory study anything you want if you have a high school/Gymnasium degree. However, places are limited and they are given out based on your GPA. Every semester you wait for a spot your GPA gets lowered for the purpose of this calculation. So if you have bad grades and want to study psychology you might have to wait 10 years. So either you are a great student or you are super dedicated. I think t…

Should probably add that in Germany lower GPA is better. So longer wait = higher priority.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#409

Post by zwieback »

2ion wrote: post #379
zwieback wrote: post #302

Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany. Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms, restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises. I'm guessing most US…

> there's not much general ed to speak of If by 'general ed' you are referring to optional classes that are not necessarily related to your core subject or electives, I would like to say that you have very much the option (and in most reformed Bachelor-type programs it's a requirement) to take such classes and choose among many types of seminars ranging from communication and negotiation coaching to optional language…

Agreed, the German system worked well for me and there are other higher-ed systems in Germany that take up the middle ground between 6-year degrees and vocational schools.

It would be politically impossible in the US to have a high school system like Germany's where university students effectively get selected in 5th grade and in consequence the US has everyone entering the same undergraduate system. Universities here have to cater to a broader audience, they just don't do it that well because even state schools now look very much like for-profit operations.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#410

Post by wolfgke »

praxulus wrote: post #235
jcampbell1 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has a similar system to the UK called Income Based Repayment. It is not the default option, but I think it works similarly in principle.

I believe that can only be used on government loans, not private loans. Yet another reason to avoid private student loans if at all possible.

Why don't you (or lots of US citizens) lobby for introducing a law that student loans only have to be paid back as long as you earn a decent amount of money (as in the UK according to a post higher in the tree)?
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