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Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

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Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#81
post #38

If you grow out of an apparently addictive behavior, doesn't that -- by definition -- mean it was not an addiction? OK, I know the definition of an addiction is that the behavior is having a significant negative affect, but there must be some notion of lack of control too, I would think. I know plenty of my friends in college drank quite heavily. Afterward it tapered off. And some of had quite bad grades during that…

Do you just read headlines and then comment? I mean the author addressed your point within the first few paragraphs, yet you don't seem to be incorporating any of that into your post.

I'm believe I'm asking a valid question.

I read the article last night when it came up on /r/skeptic. The author describes a sort of adolescent addiction due to underdeveloped inhibitions of those who having reach their mid-20s. The thesis seems to say that some addictions are situational, like the distinction between a normal situational depression and a clinical depression (one that does not trace to a person's current life situation).

To restate my question: is what the author describes actual an addiction? Perhaps only those addictions that don't resolve themselves are addictions.

So instead of describe the situation as the author does -- some addictions resolve themselves -- perhaps the definition of addiction needs to be refined.

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#82

From my experience and observations, most people don't grow out of being addicted, they simply shift their focus of addiction. This often goes unnoticed because there are many people who are addicted to things that the majority of society wouldn't consider an addiction. One might give up an "unhealthy" addiction for a socially acceptable one. Or their unhealthy addiction may simply shift, from one substance to anothe…

The coin flip decision making is an interesting and fun experiment. Sometimes when going out with friends we'll leave all decisions for the night up to the coin. It is freeing and irksome when a choice does not go the way you want.

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't add up. By all estimates there are many millions of people addicted to drugs or alcohol in the US alone (as many as 20+ million). If we are to assume that the article's premise that addictions tend to have a lifespan of about 15-20 years or so is due to the fact that the addicts are dying then that would correspond to something like a million deaths per year. In the sub-45 year old population that would…

Well, the cause of death for someone dying from their addiction is not always "drug overdose", but things like accident, murder, or suicide, which in fact are the top three causes of death for young adults.

Heart attack, respiratory failure, and other organ failure to boot. Tthe math of determining these "average" lengths of addiction are also troubling. When accounting for individuals that may have been addicted for three years, but died at the end of those three years, are we factoring in 3 years as the length of addiction? Are we weighting it in some other way along a point scale? The very title of that statistic is troublesome too: the length of addiction - it is unclear as to whether the lengths being measured and averaged share the same initial and final endpoints: The length of time elapsed between having no drug problem and recovery? Or, having no drug problem and death? Or, as I suspect a combined average, which renders the statistic useless.

I find troublesome that the author of the article (renowned neuroscientist and addiction journalist as cited) suggests that addiction is akin to a habit. The behavior itself is certainly habit, but the addiction lies moreso in the etymology and function of the habit than the actual repetitive behavior. For some, the addiction is distraction, for some escape, for others a sense of identity, and so on and so forth. To prescribe "outgrowing the addiction" as a solution is awfully simplistic, almost suggesting that if an addict could only replace that habit with something else, then all would be hunky dory. Well, in theory, sure. Maybe we can start designing rehab centers like they used to do traffic school - Improv Traffic School, Comedy Traffic School, Bikers' Traffic School - maybe Knitters Rehab: "We'll help you put down that needle, and pick up this one!" or Foodies Rehab: "Stop smoking that joint, and learn to smoke these ribs!" The possibilities are endless. But not likely.

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#84

Isn't it possible that the issue is in the difficulty in classifying people as "addicts" instead of concluding that most addicts just grow out of it? The alcoholics in my family do not grow out of it. To a man (or woman) they just deteriorate over the years and it is a very sad thing to watch. It seems possible that what the author had and what my family members have are two different afflictions. >Moreover, if addic…

There may be different fundamental types of addiction but what the author described sure sounded like 'addiction' to me.

It is always very dangerous and misleading to argue about abstract categories as if they were real things outside of the minds that make them. "Addiction" the label we use for a category we impose on the objective reality we observe. The OP is questioning the utility of that categorization based on more extensive observation of that objective reality.

In particular: there is evidence that the population we now group into the category "addicts" may in fact include two sub-populations, one of which "ages out", one of which does not. We currently have a "lumped model" of addiction, which associates certain additional features with the phenomenology we use to assign something to the category.

For example, if we find a person who is a chronic user whose use is negatively impacting their lives and who seems unable to stop, we are going to label that person an "addict". But the members of that category also get assigned other attributes for free. In particular, the current model of "addiction is a disease" says that anyone who fits the external phenomenology is also never going to get better without "treatment", or at best is very unlikely to do so.

But that association of "uncontrolled harmful use" and "its a disease" is a purely theoretical construct that may be wrong.

For comparison: I once worked on the genetics of a particular type of cancer that had two very distinct outcomes but which presented identically in a clinical setting. A physician I worked with described it as being incredibly frustrating, because she could literally see two patients in the same day who were apparently in the same condition based on histology, stage of the disease, everything, but ten years later one would be watching his daughter graduating from high-school and the other would have been dead for nine years. Simply because the diseases looked the same by some measures did not mean they were the same thing.

So it could well be that the same external phenomenology is present in two quite different conditions. It would be extremely silly to argue that one is "really" addiction and other is not, because "addiction" is just an abstract category we created to subsume different instances of similar phenomenology. We could call one grue and the other bleen, for all the difference it would make.

The possibility of two quite different underlying conditions presenting similar symptoms is one that has been realized often enough to be worth taking seriously, and when it occurs in things like the cancer described above no one ever makes the argument 'well X sounds like it is really cancer type Y to me'. Yet when the question of addiction comes up, many people say precisely that, and I am at a loss to understand why.

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#85
post #43

As someone who struggled with cocaine, heroin and prescription opioid addictions throughout my teenage years, this resonates with me quite a bit, but I'm not sure if I agree with the conclusions the author is drawing. I got clean with no help either - and yet, many years later, I still consider myself "in recovery." I view my recovery as a never-ending process; even though I haven't touched the substances themselves…

You don't have answer this but I have to ask, did you find some other less severe addiction to cope - like marijuana for example? I ask because, well, your username.

Your name would also imply some level of cannabis use. Also, cartoon racism.

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#86
post #43

As someone who struggled with cocaine, heroin and prescription opioid addictions throughout my teenage years, this resonates with me quite a bit, but I'm not sure if I agree with the conclusions the author is drawing. I got clean with no help either - and yet, many years later, I still consider myself "in recovery." I view my recovery as a never-ending process; even though I haven't touched the substances themselves…

You don't have answer this but I have to ask, did you find some other less severe addiction to cope - like marijuana for example? I ask because, well, your username.

No, I was completely sober for a few years after kicking all the hard stuff. I acquired a taste for marijuana relatively recently, and while I do smoke quite a bit nowadays, I don't think of it as a coping tool, just something I do for fun when I have time to kill.

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, like the fundamentally different types being: 1. The kind that goes away. 2. The kind that just keeps getting worse. for instance?

If I get H1N1 flu with pneumonia, I might get worse and die or I might get better, but there's only one fundamental type. You can't reliably classify based on outcome.

Epidemiologcially, similar symptoms that progress to different outcomes is one of the key tools in understanding the underlying mechanisms of a disease, so to say "you can't reliably classify based on outcomes" is incorrect. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't, and it is always worth asking the question "how come?" when you get very different outcomes from the same disease-causing agent.

In the general case there are four possibilities:

1) the different outcomes arise because of a difference in the individuals involved (this is useful for exploring treatment options: is there any way to make people with bad outcomes more closely resemble people with good outcomes?)

2) the different outcomes arise because of a difference in the disease-causing agent (this is useful when allocating treatment resources and preparing patients if the outcome is likely to be bad.)

3) some interaction between the first two factors

4) some other external factor is at play (you're a smoker, another patient is not.)

As I mentioned in another comment, I've done work on cancer genetics where the goal was to find out why some patients with what appeared to be the same disease "simply fell apart" (in the words of one of the physicians) while others lived relatively long and healthy lives). There certainly was a belief that we could classify the disease based on the outcome, and that belief motivated some fairly difficult research, but no one called it unreasonable because we had similar examples in the literature (Kahn's work on small round blue cell carcinoma being a famous case in point: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1867426/)

So: when you have populations with different outcomes, it is both reasonable and routine to ask if you have different conditions, despite superficial similarities in clinical presentation.

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#88
Here is one addiction I wish I could grow out of: benzos and other benzo like drugs such as Ambien (zolpidem). I've been on them for almost 9 years, and they are unbelievably hard to quit. I take them for my insomnia. I don't have to take much (10mg of Ambien for example), but without them I'll lay awake in bed for 8 hours not getting any sleep. I've done all the sleep hygiene stuff such as CBT or forced sleep deprivation, but it doesn't seem to work.

I've been through various doctors, and I'm seeing a psychiatrist right now to deal exclusively with the sleep issue. Apparently my GABA receptors are shot from taking these drugs for so long. Unfortunately I have but two real choices: taper quickly from the Ambien and deal with 3-6 weeks of little or no sleep, or do a slow taper with Valium which only has a 20% success rate.

Not sleeping for days really, really sucks.

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#89

From my experience and observations, most people don't grow out of being addicted, they simply shift their focus of addiction. This often goes unnoticed because there are many people who are addicted to things that the majority of society wouldn't consider an addiction. One might give up an "unhealthy" addiction for a socially acceptable one. Or their unhealthy addiction may simply shift, from one substance to anothe…

I think you're misusing the term "addiction". Addiction is destructive compulsive behavior.

I don't think it's very helpful in this conversation to talk about addictions as being Buddhist-like "attachments"--that is a completely separate topic. Addiction treatment isn't necessarily about controlling compulsion, it's about controlling destructive compulsion.

Re: Most People with Addiction Simply Grow Out of It

#90
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A demon is something scary that lives inside of you. I think it's an OK metaphor.

Addictions don't live inside you, they are part of your behavior. edit: really - addictions don't live inside you, perched on your heart, making you do bad things. They are not different than you.

Most of the choices you make aren't conscious. They come from you but in the sense that you're an amalgam.

Many of your behaviors are effectively semi-autonomous reactions perched inside you.

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