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Are Ivy League schools overrated?

andrewgelman.com

31–40 of 48 posts

Re: Are Ivy League schools overrated?

#31

By parents and students? Absolutely not. By the world? Yeah, obviously. The average IQ at a good state school is about 120. In the Ivies, it's about 125. The standard deviation at each is about 13 points, so the 95th-percentile state school student would be 89th-percentile at an Ivy. That's not a huge difference. It's a lot smaller than the difference in job opportunities. Here's the biggest (and underdocumented) adv…

Where are you getting that IQ data from? I go to one of the Ivies and have never had an IQ test nor have most of my peers I would imagine.

(That said I agree with your premise, my peers at school aren't significantly more intelligent than my high school classmates who went to good, but not great, private and state colleges).

Re: Are Ivy League schools overrated?

#32
post #15
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will take a generation for the mindset to change that a purely online degree or a collection of classes from something like EdX are equal to 'Degree from State U'.

For the masses, yes. But for those willing to take their future into their own hands, I think you'll see a shift away from traditional college education. Really think that apprenticeship should make a comeback in America. I know I would have benefited from spending some time in industry after high school.

The problem is that the reason for getting a degree isn't to become "educated" it's to be come employable. And until employers start to look at an online degree or an apprenticeship as comparable in value to attending college for 4 years it won't make sense for any rational person to take that path.

Re: Are Ivy League schools overrated?

#33
I'm an academic - have worked at a variety of institutions but never officially been at an ivy league school, so I can't strictly speaking claim ground truth. But my impressions are, sure, if your idea of the "education" part of college is to (sometimes) go to classes required for your degree and do exactly what the instructor tells you and that's it, probably it doesn't make a huge difference in terms of academics where you went to school. Everybody uses (almost) the same textbooks, after all. And academic jobs are scarce enough that two instructors of the same subject at very different institutions may actually have had similar undergraduate educations and approaches to undergraduate teaching.

What ivy league and other private research universities excel at academically is scholarly opportunities outside class assignments. If you want to reconstruct 17th century pipe organs or build robotic insects or experiment on extremophiles in Greenland or whatever, there might very well be someone who wants a student to help with something like that. Plus they probably have money to cover your expenses and pay you a stipend for it, and you don't have to compete with 500 other people for the chance. More generally, if there is a particular academic topic you as a student want to learn all about, a top university has a better chance than most places of having someone or something that can help you. But the student has to show up with the initiative and persistence to get that.

The hard part is admissions: what's the best way to find students who will of their own volition seek this kind of thing out? The simple answer would seem to be to look for kids who have a history of doing that and succeeding. But instead that produced this arms race of people seeking lots of extra academic experiences purely for the sake of getting into college and then burning out and not wanting to continue once they got there.

Re: Are Ivy League schools overrated?

#34
This fits in with something I’ve noticed. I know this sounds harsh, but when I run across someone who is at the top of their profession and yet seems woefully underwhelming, they often have Ivy League BAs in non-demanding majors (For example, Jeff Zucker, Harvard, History. John Tierney, Yale, American Studies). My working hypothesis is that, while everyone who graduates from an elite school has an advantage in terms of reputation and networks, the actual difficulty of completing certain degrees isn’t that high relative to non-elite schools. Thus a history degree from Harvard isn’t worth that much more than a history degree from a Cal State school.

This has been my experience. I used to hold Harvard, Yale and Princeton in very high esteem. Then I met a dumb as rocks Princeton history major. In his defense, he was in a Sales job, and admitted that Lacrosse helped him get in.

It isn't like history majors in large public schools have any higher of a mean competence.

I reached the opposite conclusion as the article, though. If you're going to major in something soft and what to go anywhere, you have to go somewhere good. You can have a good career with a CS degree from either Yale or Ohio State. If you want to have a good career with a Journalism or History degree, you really need to go to Yale.

Re: Are Ivy League schools overrated?

#35

I'm an academic - have worked at a variety of institutions but never officially been at an ivy league school, so I can't strictly speaking claim ground truth. But my impressions are, sure, if your idea of the "education" part of college is to (sometimes) go to classes required for your degree and do exactly what the instructor tells you and that's it, probably it doesn't make a huge difference in terms of academics w…

What ivy league and other private research universities excel at academically is scholarly opportunities outside class assignments.

This is actually true at any school. At large state schools, there are professors doing real research. The difference with the ivy leagues is very few students actually seek these experiences out. (I was one of four undergrads applying for a paid research position during my Big School CS undergrad. I got it as a sophomore because the competition was weak.) I still would have had a better experience at Stanford or MIT, but I think it's more a peer effect.

But instead that produced this arms race of people seeking lots of extra academic experiences purely for the sake of getting into college and then burning out and not wanting to continue once they got there.

This is very true. I was very surprised how many of my friends dropped their extracurriculars in college. The only friends who stayed in music were the ones (like me) who went to large state schools - in essence because we were doing it for it's own sake. Turning college admissions into an extracurricular quest (in addition to a "Don't dare get a B" risk aversion) seems very wrong.

My sense is that this gets sorted out in the end. After a few years of work, all the nonsense about school admissions is gone.

Re: Are Ivy League schools overrated?

#36
The network you can make and the doors it opens are tremendous and without them you have to hustle in a completely different area than you otherwise would.

It's not that they give you a free win, but rather an advantage you can play later as needed. Getting a degree from a no name liberal arts school or a smaller state school is not going to mean the same thing for certain pursuits.

That said, an overachiever can do amazing things with limited opportunity. Advantage or disadvantage, it depends on how you use it.

Re: Are Ivy League schools overrated?

#37

This fits in with something I’ve noticed. I know this sounds harsh, but when I run across someone who is at the top of their profession and yet seems woefully underwhelming, they often have Ivy League BAs in non-demanding majors (For example, Jeff Zucker, Harvard, History. John Tierney, Yale, American Studies). My working hypothesis is that, while everyone who graduates from an elite school has an advantage in terms…

"and admitted that Lacrosse helped him get in"

Indeed. Once you factor in the athletes and worse, legacy admits, Ivies have real trouble building an all around good class by the metrics most in this discussion are using (by their metrics, they're education the future leaders of the US and world, so...).

MIT and no doubt CalTech have a great advantage in that the first calculation in admissions is "can they do the work?"; that, which is a rather high bar, plus tremendous self-selection in applicants, results in a somewhat different student body. Or at least compared to nearby Harvard by my observations.

Re: Are Ivy League schools overrated?

#38

By parents and students? Absolutely not. By the world? Yeah, obviously. The average IQ at a good state school is about 120. In the Ivies, it's about 125. The standard deviation at each is about 13 points, so the 95th-percentile state school student would be 89th-percentile at an Ivy. That's not a huge difference. It's a lot smaller than the difference in job opportunities. Here's the biggest (and underdocumented) adv…

Where are you getting that IQ data from? I go to one of the Ivies and have never had an IQ test nor have most of my peers I would imagine. (That said I agree with your premise, my peers at school aren't significantly more intelligent than my high school classmates who went to good, but not great, private and state colleges).

I had an unhealthy obsession with IQ testing. A phase long ago. I remember reading that the average Harvard IQ tested at 130 and the other Ivies in the mid-120s. You can guess based on SAT figures, noting that extracurricular factors (paradoxically) decrease the IQ/SAT correlation (people who beat a top school's extracurricular game are more likely than average to have prepped for SATs and have scores that overstate their IQs). So a 1500 average SAT (out of 1600) ends up mapping to a group average IQ around 130, even though a typical individual with a 1500 SAT is probably around 140 IQ.

These numbers fluctuate and it's quite possible that the increasing usage of socioeconomic/extracurricular criteria has decreased the gap.

Re: Are Ivy League schools overrated?

#39

I'm an academic - have worked at a variety of institutions but never officially been at an ivy league school, so I can't strictly speaking claim ground truth. But my impressions are, sure, if your idea of the "education" part of college is to (sometimes) go to classes required for your degree and do exactly what the instructor tells you and that's it, probably it doesn't make a huge difference in terms of academics w…

What ivy league and other private research universities excel at academically is scholarly opportunities outside class assignments. This is actually true at any school. At large state schools, there are professors doing real research. The difference with the ivy leagues is very few students actually seek these experiences out. (I was one of four undergrads applying for a paid research position during my Big School CS…

What ivy league and other private research universities excel at academically is scholarly opportunities outside class assignments.

This is actually true at any school. At large state schools, there are professors doing real research. The difference with the ivy leagues is very few students actually seek these experiences out.

I completely agree (having been at a large state school) that there are many professors doing high quality research at state schools. I think the difference is (as you suggest) the funding and competition. Funding and even for-credit programs for undergraduate research were (I found) much more limited at state schools. You'd have 10 students, all with straight A's, applying for a single one-semester research assistantship that'd grant 1 course credit. At the same time I know of ivy school subject-specific fellowships of thousands of dollars for summer travel/study for which perhaps only 2 or 3 people would apply simply because there were so many other opportunities available. The net result is that if you're at an ivy, that kind of experience is much much easier to get.

Re: Are Ivy League schools overrated?

#40
post #23

Steven Pinker offers a very convincing dissection of the referenced Deresiewicz article [1]. [1] http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119321/harvard-ivy-league... TL;DR: - Deresiewicz is willfully ignorant/misleading in his pursuit of being controversial. - Ivy league students are smart, but there are smart students everywhere. - Admissions to Ivy league schools is not as objective as it should be. There is too much fo…

Pinker goes overboard in the opposite direction. He is against "wholistic" admissions because he despises, for entirely good reasons, the current outcomes. He should focus on legacy admissions and sports.

Universities with first tier art, theater, and music departments can't rely on SAT scores for admissions to those departments.

I heartily endorse requiring community service work. While some people will be impervious of learning anything, a few days working in a food bank will expose you to people who smell like cigarette smoke and spend money they badly need to put by on lottery tickets. If you don't get to see they are actual human people and not abstractions, you might see only abstract solutions.

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