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Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

sile-typesetter.org

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Re: Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

#61
post #51

>> The job of a word processor is to produce a document that looks exactly like what you type on the screen. SILE takes what you type and considers it instructions for producing a document that looks as good as possible. >> SILE doesn’t show you where the lines will break, because it doesn’t know yet. Genuinely asking: Why cannot the above be done in real-time as the user types? (I understand that would blur the line…

> Why cannot the above be done in real-time as the user types?

This is what InDesign does.

Re: Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I opened that PDF and the first page has two off-centre lines... not particularly impressed. And the line heights and kerning are all over the place. It's actually straight up terrible. Sorry, OP.

The design issues with this manual do not necessarily detract from the technical capabilities of this new system. But it's bad advertising of course.

Thank you for the gentle reminder that we might be well-served to examine more than the output. It is v0.9.0, after all. It was easy to say, "what is this!?" and start looking to find bugs/mistakes, when what's more interesting (to me) are the (planned?) placement of its capabilities with respect to InDesign and TeX.

Re: Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

#65
post #62

[deleted]

I think it's intended as a physical document with all new chapters starting on the right hand page.

Whoops, I deleted my comment (asking why a page was blank). You have a really good point, I had not even thought about what it would look when printed. Thank you for clarifying that, it makes a lot of sense.

Re: Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

#66
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great question. I've been wondering why nobody (AFAIK) has done this. Seems like the only worthwile reason to do something as silly as rewriting TeX.

I foresee mashing a robust typesetting application and a robust word processing application as being an extremely difficult thing to do well. Both are very different use cases and resulting environments.

A detailed understanding of this difficulty is what I am seeking. Can you explain more about why such a combined thing would be difficult and/or would be unable to satisfy both use cases? Thanks.

Re: Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

#67
post #56
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great question. I've been wondering why nobody (AFAIK) has done this. Seems like the only worthwile reason to do something as silly as rewriting TeX.

TeXmacs[1] more or less does this. As a bonus, as well as rewriting TeX, it also includes a rewrite of emacs. 1: http://www.texmacs.org/

The last time I checked, the implementation was still half-baked. Hyperlinks for example were not handled in real-time, nor were the equations if I recall correctly.

Re: Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

#68
post #55
post #51

>> The job of a word processor is to produce a document that looks exactly like what you type on the screen. SILE takes what you type and considers it instructions for producing a document that looks as good as possible. >> SILE doesn’t show you where the lines will break, because it doesn’t know yet. Genuinely asking: Why cannot the above be done in real-time as the user types? (I understand that would blur the line…

> Why cannot the above be done in real-time as the user types? But why would you want to do that? The display of text that is good for editing is not necessarily the same as the display of text that is good on the page.

I take that. Now we need to get to the next step to resolve that 'necessarily'. Where are the respective maximas and what specifically are the differences. PS: Answer to the above may already be well-known and obvious, so I am just genuinely asking since I do not understand it as yet, being inexperienced in this area.

Re: Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

#69
post #57
post #51

>> The job of a word processor is to produce a document that looks exactly like what you type on the screen. SILE takes what you type and considers it instructions for producing a document that looks as good as possible. >> SILE doesn’t show you where the lines will break, because it doesn’t know yet. Genuinely asking: Why cannot the above be done in real-time as the user types? (I understand that would blur the line…

I'm not sure about SILE, but for TeX, the algorithm determining the line breaks was exponential in the length of the document. Even on a modern machine, a moderately complex document will take a few seconds to run; in the 80s and 90s, my professors told me it'd take minutes to run a TeX pass. The reason why Google Docs / Word / etc. can show the line breaks in real time is that it uses a faster (but less "optimal") a…

Great, this is the type of answer I was looking for. Can you supply or point to more details please? E.g. what is the optimal line-breaks algorithm used for Tex, and what and how much is the negative impact of the less optimal one? Thanks

Re: Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

#70
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I foresee mashing a robust typesetting application and a robust word processing application as being an extremely difficult thing to do well. Both are very different use cases and resulting environments.

A detailed understanding of this difficulty is what I am seeking. Can you explain more about why such a combined thing would be difficult and/or would be unable to satisfy both use cases? Thanks.

A few things come to mind.

Each use case—typesetting and word-processing—have enough standardized tools to fill an entire application's interface. I think making the compromises needed to do be able to do both adequately would be too much to make either task worthwhile. Maybe that wouldn't necessarily be true for digital, like ePub, but I think that would quickly become true for print.

I don't feel a typesetting interface/context is amenable to writing long-form documents. When I take into consideration multi-column layouts, running headers and footers, art wrapping, page flow across multiple pages, there are what appears to be a lot of potential distractors from the writing process. Word processing documents, when I hide as much of the interface as I can, allow for the tight focus needed for long-form writing. Someone else in this thread suggested having writing and editing happen in another window, but that's still creating an abstraction from the layout, and not really having edits happen "in real time" if only because then editing is not happening actually within the layout.

Finally, I think there would be a significant barrier to training for many authors trying to work in layouts. There are applications, like QuarkXpress, that enable word-processing-like tools in the layout. But I couldn't imagine asking an author to learn enough about the above to ask them to write a long-form paper, much less an entire book, in that environment. Fonts are handled differently, styles are handled differently, etc.

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