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Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

danilocampos.com

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Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#41

Post by BrandonM »

metavida wrote: post #39
BrandonM wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me know when you want to stop speaking in metaphors or empty platitudes or unrepresentative, cherry-picked snippets, and then we can have a discussion. So far, I see no actionable suggestions for how to solve the problem, or even a clear definition of the problem.

> I see no actionable suggestions for how to solve the problem Here are a few actionable suggestions from OP's article: * "[Create] a Code of Conduct for Hacker News." This helps all community members share clear expectations of appropriate & inappropriate behavior. * "After providing clear guidance for what kinds of comments are acceptable to its values, YC must fund a means of consistent enforcement when content is…

That's fair. The first two are pretty good suggestions. I wish he hadn't buried them at the end of an article that was very one-sided (e.g., "Hacker News is a cesspit"). I wish he had made a nice summary like the one you provided.

@_danilo: The sad thing is that I actually agree with your goals and the first two suggestions. I disagree with your tactics. I apologize if my viewpoint sounded like, "There is no problem." That was not my intent. I only intended to offer a counterpoint to what I felt was a misrepresentation of the overall character of Hacker News. I definitely agree with you that there are issues.

But in the process of responding to me, you attacked me. I literally feel like a victim at this point. You took the conversation to Twitter, where I don't even have an account, and aired your grievances about me at my employer.

Please consider your actions in the future. You are not helping your cause when you alienate others and make them feel helpless. You could have tried a little bit harder to convince me instead of attacking me (cf. this post).

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#42

Post by danilocampos »

BrandonM wrote: post #38
danilocampos wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please enjoy this comment from a user 2k days old with 11k karma: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6165385 > Rape has meanings other than non-consensual sex. GP: Please use the word rape to the full extent provided by the english language, and let those who don't like the word deal with it. Hat tip: https://twitter.com/AaronM/status/517372417233002496

I personally avoid using "rape" in such contexts. I don't like it. I agree with the parent comment, who says that it "is so deeply emotive and meaningful, in such an inappropriate context." So I agree that the comment you linked to is insensitive. Does that justify attacking me ( https://twitter.com/_danilo/status/517371895747194880 )? Can you tell me where you feel that I was defending bad behavior, or bad culture?…

Working for someone who thinks this exercise has been "cherry picking," who thinks it's the job of marginalized people to educate bigots, would be a horror show. Especially given the lack of self-awareness you've displayed here. Saying so is not only okay—it's necessary.

https://twitter.com/kelseyinnis/status/516986016356261888

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#43

Post by BrandonM »

danilocampos wrote: post #42
BrandonM wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally avoid using "rape" in such contexts. I don't like it. I agree with the parent comment, who says that it "is so deeply emotive and meaningful, in such an inappropriate context." So I agree that the comment you linked to is insensitive. Does that justify attacking me ( https://twitter.com/_danilo/status/517371895747194880 )? Can you tell me where you feel that I was defending bad behavior, or bad culture?…

Working for someone who thinks this exercise has been "cherry picking," who thinks it's the job of marginalized people to educate bigots, would be a horror show. Especially given the lack of self-awareness you've displayed here. Saying so is not only okay—it's necessary. https://twitter.com/kelseyinnis/status/516986016356261888

"Working for someone..."? Who are you referring to? The startup I work for is not a YC company. Our founder/CEO is not active on HN. One of his main hobbies is participating on an international coed Ultimate Frisbee team.

I don't think it's the part of marginalized people to educate bigots. Sorry if I wrongly assumed that you aren't marginalized.

My view is that the moral non-marginalized should speak out loudly against bigots. I was trying to encourage you to attack the bigots instead of attacking everyone else.

Edit: BTW, Everlaw has a blog. Anyone is welcome to read it and form their own opinions about our culture.

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#44

Post by dragonwriter »

metavida wrote: post #39
BrandonM wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me know when you want to stop speaking in metaphors or empty platitudes or unrepresentative, cherry-picked snippets, and then we can have a discussion. So far, I see no actionable suggestions for how to solve the problem, or even a clear definition of the problem.

> I see no actionable suggestions for how to solve the problem Here are a few actionable suggestions from OP's article: * "[Create] a Code of Conduct for Hacker News." This helps all community members share clear expectations of appropriate & inappropriate behavior. * "After providing clear guidance for what kinds of comments are acceptable to its values, YC must fund a means of consistent enforcement when content is…

> "[Create] a Code of Conduct for Hacker News." This helps all community members share clear expectations of appropriate & inappropriate behavior.

Hacker News has a set of guidelines that provide clear expectation of appropriate and inappropriate behavior as it regards submissions, comments, and flagging.

Presumably, the author of this piece isn't just complaining that the "Guidelines" aren't titled "Code of Conduct", and actually prefers different specific expectations than those that are currently specified. But, to make an actual actionable suggestion, concrete changes need to be identified.

> "After providing clear guidance for what kinds of comments are acceptable to its values, YC must fund a means of consistent enforcement when content is posted outside those bounds."

Heavy handed centralized moderation rather than relying primarily on community moderation is an actionable suggestion, but there is no concrete evidence presented that (1) community moderation isn't working, or (2) heavy-handed centralized moderation would work better.

> "[YC] must publicly accept its complicity in building and maintaining a business asset with these negative externalities."

Except for handwaving at vague anecdotes and stating the authors personal opinion, there's no support for the existence of the asserted "negative externalities". But, yes, while it lacks justification for action, this is certainly an actionable suggestion.

> "YC must submit to accountability for improvement."

This is a vague statement, not a specific, actionable suggestion.

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#45

Post by [deleted] »

danilocampos wrote: post #36
BrandonM wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me know when you want to stop speaking in metaphors or empty platitudes or unrepresentative, cherry-picked snippets, and then we can have a discussion. So far, I see no actionable suggestions for how to solve the problem, or even a clear definition of the problem.

I'm not here to have a "discussion" with someone who's desperate to defend the powerful from facing their own malfeasance. Your remarks and lack of self-awareness show that you're part of the problem. I don't see any benefit to investing meaningful time in reaching you. I've provided a case and actionable suggestions here, at a length of 745 words. I'm not going to give you 745 more. http://danilocampos.com/2014/09/y…

[deleted]

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#46

Post by metavida »

danilocampos wrote: post #42
BrandonM wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally avoid using "rape" in such contexts. I don't like it. I agree with the parent comment, who says that it "is so deeply emotive and meaningful, in such an inappropriate context." So I agree that the comment you linked to is insensitive. Does that justify attacking me ( https://twitter.com/_danilo/status/517371895747194880 )? Can you tell me where you feel that I was defending bad behavior, or bad culture?…

Working for someone who thinks this exercise has been "cherry picking," who thinks it's the job of marginalized people to educate bigots, would be a horror show. Especially given the lack of self-awareness you've displayed here. Saying so is not only okay—it's necessary. https://twitter.com/kelseyinnis/status/516986016356261888

Danilo, I loved the article & thought it was much needed. Agreed that it's not the job of the marginalized to educate oppressors. Agreed that it's frustrating and exhausting for anyone to take on the task of educating others, and that your writing is an attempt at making others aware of the problems that exist. I agree that BrandonM's classification of your article as "cherry picking" demonstrates a lack of awareness of the difficulties of minorities and women in tech & at HN. However, simply because a person doesn't express a certain level of self-awareness or education about the disadvantage others are experiencing doesn't automatically quality them as an enemy nor a bad human.

BrandonM, I'd encourage you to keep educating yourself. I'd suggest reading resources like http://juliepagano.com/blog/2013/11/02/101-off-limits/ and following some "social justice warriors" via your platform of choice.

I, personally, am still very much in the process of learning about how my own privileges (white, middle-class, male, cis, het) affect me and others, which is why I find article's like Danilo especially useful.

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#47

Post by BrandonM »

metavida wrote: post #46
danilocampos wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working for someone who thinks this exercise has been "cherry picking," who thinks it's the job of marginalized people to educate bigots, would be a horror show. Especially given the lack of self-awareness you've displayed here. Saying so is not only okay—it's necessary. https://twitter.com/kelseyinnis/status/516986016356261888

Danilo, I loved the article & thought it was much needed. Agreed that it's not the job of the marginalized to educate oppressors. Agreed that it's frustrating and exhausting for anyone to take on the task of educating others, and that your writing is an attempt at making others aware of the problems that exist. I agree that BrandonM's classification of your article as "cherry picking" demonstrates a lack of awareness…

I appreciate your level-headed response, metavida. I think you're taking the right approach in trying to quell hostility (rather than create it) and in providing links to follow up with. I am in full agreement that everyone should have an equal opportunity to do what they love, and I am quick to stand up to oppressors and bullies. I recognize the problem and agree that we need to address it.

That's the main reason why Danilo's actions bothered me so much today. My initial post basically boiled down to, "The article misrepresented Hacker News: it's no worse than other communities with similar demographics. And when bigots make themselves visible, it gives us a chance to change minds." Even I can come around to the idea that those are shitty points.

But we didn't have that discussion. Instead, Danilo used his Twitter privilege (where I have none) to level an attack at me, threatening my livelihood. To me, that seems like a different version of the exact problem he is purporting to solve.

If the "warrior" in "social justice warrior" is literal, then I suppose that tactic makes sense. But I think there's a better way. I read this today:

The biggest crime of fear is getting my mind so wrapped up in itself, I forget that that I’m not the only one who is afraid. We’ve all got things that haunt us.

Did I really deserve what Danilo threw at me today?

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#48

Post by danilocampos »

BrandonM wrote: post #47
metavida wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Danilo, I loved the article & thought it was much needed. Agreed that it's not the job of the marginalized to educate oppressors. Agreed that it's frustrating and exhausting for anyone to take on the task of educating others, and that your writing is an attempt at making others aware of the problems that exist. I agree that BrandonM's classification of your article as "cherry picking" demonstrates a lack of awareness…

I appreciate your level-headed response, metavida. I think you're taking the right approach in trying to quell hostility (rather than create it) and in providing links to follow up with. I am in full agreement that everyone should have an equal opportunity to do what they love, and I am quick to stand up to oppressors and bullies. I recognize the problem and agree that we need to address it. That's the main reason wh…

> Did I really deserve what Danilo threw at me today?

> Twitter privilege

Goodness. If anything, you got off easy, bub. Even now, oblivious, invoking concepts like "privilege" you clearly don't understand.

You don't get to run your mouth about things you don't understand and then escape accountability. You don't get to excuse a terrible status quo as being acceptable because it serves to educate people at the expense of the marginalized.

You are exactly the problem. Not the bigots. Not the overt sexists. Not the children posing as grownups, too young to know their indecency. The problem is mealy-mouthed folks who mistake differences of power for differences opinion. And who forgive the unacceptable on that basis.

And feel so righteous doing so.

Sorry if that's not the sort of coddling you're used to. But I'm not here for you. I'm not here to make you comfortable and I'm certainly not here to persuade you. I'm here because what you said was wrong and dangerous.

I'm a lot more concerned with the feelings of people who are being driven out of this industry because of exactly the sort of chicanery you're excusing.

Working for you sounds damn crummy. If you don't want that sort of observation leveled in public in the future, I have one suggestion:

read some books

Do the right thing because it's the right thing. Not because someone was nice to you or not on Hacker News.

> threatening my livelihood

And where is the threat to your livelihood, exactly?

If what you said was as acceptable as you claim, you face no danger.

If what you said was problematic, then why did you say it? Publicly? Flying under the banner of "Lead Software Engineer for Everlaw."

And why would you expect a public wrong to pass with impunity?

You're arguing both that you were perfectly reasonable—and that I was unreasonable to call you out for saying something crummy.

Pick one.

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#49

Post by solipsism »

figglesonrails wrote: post #32
solipsism wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need me to provide examples of sexism or racism in "civil" discourse? Maybe we don't live in the same society. Read the post that these comments are about. Only a minority of them are trolls. Many are otherwise reasonable and intelligent people saying ignorant and shitty things in calm, civil, flag-avoiding ways. If you don't notice it it's because you're privileged. If you're not, it's like you're swimming in it…

Err, no. I was hoping you could clarify what is meant, like I said. I get the idea of "casual [xxxx]ism", where something is so internalized and normalized that it doesn't even register as shitty. However, I was specifically asking if you thought it was possible to have discussions on sensitive topics in a civil way or if having a discussion, e.g., "the pros and cons of slavery in America" or "was the prophet of Isla…

I never asserted that one should always be civil. I welcome honesty and open conversation. My point was that a conversation - a whole set of comments on a story, for example - can be civil and still overwhelmingly racist or sexist or what have you. I took the original poster's comment to be saying, "Well, as long as we keep it civil.". I'm saying " Come on, we can do better than that if we want, and we should." I'm also saying "YC doesn't get a pass for keeping it civil but overlooking a general culture of objectification or ignorance."

I could do without the civility, to be honest. I'd rather be compassionate and thoughtful and inclusive but irreverent and disrespectful.

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#50

Post by anthonyb »

BrandonM wrote: post #28

I'm surprised that the author could write such a cherry-picked article with a straight face. I clicked through to the six links in the twitter comments. Here's a summary of who made them: 1. bobcostas55: member for 146 days, 42 karma 2. gph: member for 997 days, 634 karma 3. lulzwat1111: member for 32 days, -8 karma, comment downvoted into oblivion 4. aianus: member for 588 days, 369 karma 5. https://news.ycombinator…

> these comments are not representative of the entire community, or of even a single medium-profile user.

The community doesn't have to be 100% racist or sexist for there to be a problem. These are all from the same threads as the original article:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8342366 [7227 karma, 1269 days old]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8342896 [7401 karma, 2780 days old]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8338055 [32302 karma, 2432 days old]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8392928 [5003 karma, 1249 days old]

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