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Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

timeshighereducation.co.uk

271–280 of 536 posts

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#271

Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university fees and social mobility? On one hand it seems obvious that if you reduce costs of attending university you remove a barrier that would prevent economically disadvantaged people from attending. But on the other hand, university students, especially those at the best universities disproportionately come from better economic backgrounds and t…

Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university fees and social mobility? Thank you for asking for data to inform our discussion here. Yes. There are a number of scholars of the economics of education who work full-time researching this issue. You are correct that university admission generally takes in young people from more prosperous families all over the world--because young people f…

> The best evidence from international studies suggests the policy announced by Germany is not the best policy for ensuring access to higher education.

That's not true. The report you linked to is trying to "strike the right balance between keeping student charges reasonable and finding sufficient funding for their higher education systems." The goal is to simply reduce government spending on education by transferring costs to individuals.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe a free education, but add a screening process to measure the psychology of the student, help choose a profession or trade that will not be a waste of their time.

University should not be trade or professional school.

That ship is in the Guinness Book of Records under, "Longest distance sailed." These days, practically every university student is there to better their job prospects.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#273
post #251
post #225

I see lots of envy from US and UK based people, but not any thought given to the great opportunity: Germany accepts international students. Why not go to a German university and get a quality education paid for by the German taxpayer? As a bonus, you'll get to learn German for free.

Is it even covered for international students? In Canada international students pay much higher rates for tuition. About $10k for a program that might cost Canadians $3k. It's a huge racket. I'd be surprised if Germans decided to do the same, as well as taxpayers being will to pay for foreigners education.

Yeah, international students pay the same tuition/fees in Germany as Germans, which is to say next to nothing. I know several people that have, or are doing graduate degrees here. Usually there is 100-200€ in fees per semester but that often includes a transit/intercity train pass within the state.

It struck me as odd at first too, coming from Canada where certain programs at certain universities take as many international students as they can to subsidize the rest of the program.

Keep in mind this usually (but not always) involves passing the TestDAF to prove German fluency.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#274
I've been digging through this thread and can't seem to find any information on the impact of 'free tuition' on tuition costs. In the US, we saw an increase in loan availability result in a significant uptick in the price of attendance to universities. If the government is paying the cost of tuition, how is the cost of tuition kept in check?

Disclaimer: I love the idea of free public education. I wish it would take hold in the US. My only concern is how Universities will react to being paid almost arbitrary amounts of money per-student.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#275
post #23
post #18

There's a big difference between no tuition fees and "free" education. All this means is that the cost of education is passed on to all tax payers. Now this can be justified, there is utility in having an educated workforce and society. However when everyone is paying there is a need to have a decision about how many people need that education to provide the benefits everyone gets. The UK is seeing these problems wit…

They don't harm your credit rating, but... * You have to declare them when trying to get a mortgage (or any other loan) and so may reduce the amount you are leant. * If you go bankrupt - the loan does not go away. * Want to launch a funky startup? Now the graduates you want to work for you start demanding more money because a higher percentage now goes back to the Student Loan Company. I fought hard against the intro…

> Now the graduates you want to work for you start demanding more money because a higher percentage now goes back to the Student Loan Company.

I'm sorry but that's the way it is if you want a skilled workforce.

If you're not paying it that way you're paying higher corporation taxes.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#276
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter example: There are 8000 poor persons paying 1p and 10 well-of paying 100 for his kids to go to university. None of the 8000 poor people has kids in univ.

Sorry, but no. We know that there is 40% attendance at university, so 3,194 of the less well-off people would have kids who attend.

Ignoring the made-up numbers, that means that 60% of people are contributing to the education of that 40%, unless those 60% of people are exempted from a certain kind of tax that the 40% have to pay, which is exactly what the thread starter was calling a "graduate tax".

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe a free education, but add a screening process to measure the psychology of the student, help choose a profession or trade that will not be a waste of their time.

University should not be trade or professional school.

Unfortunately, the thing that I think would be the most useful doesn't seem to be available. I would like something that was somewhere between a trade school and a university.

I have a bachelor's degree in Computer Science, which is really the minimum degree I would have chosen to get a job in my present field. However, probably at least 50% of the classes I took to get that degree were a complete waste of my time.

"Trade schools" in my view have a reputation for not having enough depth in the field for which they are targeted (at least, in the United States). The perception when I graduated was that a CS degree was way better than any "tech school" degree -- if you wanted to get a job, that is.

I would have loved to have gone to a school that offered a very deep Computer Science program that was targeted just at Computer Science. I didn't need or want English, Philosophy, Sociology, and all of the other worthless classes that I was forced to take to fulfill the requirements. Math classes make sense, those have useful applications in my chosen field.

And I don't have a problem with anyone that wants to take those kind of classes either. It's just that I had a specific goal in mind when I enrolled, and the results could have been so much more satisfying if the curriculum had been better targeted.

If I were starting over today (with all the resources available on the internet, etc) I would consider not going to college at all. It has become prohibitively expensive in the United States, and from what I understand things have not really changed much (and if they have it is probably for the worse). There are a ton of very high-quality resources for learning available online (many of which I wish I had more time to use). I am not at all discounting the value of well-designed classes in a school setting. However, I do think that people tend to underestimate how much a self-driven person can learn on their own.

Also, I would be far more likely to plan to be self-employed (if I were starting today) that I would have been when I was entering college. At that time, I just wouldn't have considered it. Today I'm sure that I could make that happen.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#278
post #255

Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university fees and social mobility? On one hand it seems obvious that if you reduce costs of attending university you remove a barrier that would prevent economically disadvantaged people from attending. But on the other hand, university students, especially those at the best universities disproportionately come from better economic backgrounds and t…

You will also be paying for students who are getting degrees that end up making them no money. When I was in school there were so many people getting fine art degrees focusing on ceramics, oil painting, etc. who are now working at grocery stores or getting some sort of education in new field. Their debts are now on everyone else.

Tuition in Germany was limited to 300 Euro/ semester anyways. That never really paid for the education fully.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#279
post #225

I see lots of envy from US and UK based people, but not any thought given to the great opportunity: Germany accepts international students. Why not go to a German university and get a quality education paid for by the German taxpayer? As a bonus, you'll get to learn German for free.

Well, there are a number of reasons.

First of all, you won't actually get to learn German for free. In order to be admitted, you'll need to already speak Germany at a B2/C1 [1] level of fluency. This is probably the biggest obstacle: if you aren't already fluent, you won't learn a foreign language overnight, and if you are, you've probably already considered studying in Germany.

Second, if you're American, your high school diploma generally isn't enough to be admitted. The requirements are a high school diploma AND a 3.0+ GPA AND either a SAT score in Math/Critical Reading of 1300+ or an ACT of 29+ (successful AP courses or college experience can lower the requirements or substitute for them).

Third, you may not be eligible for financial assistance; even without tuition to worry about, you still need to feed yourself, have a roof over your head, and pay for health insurance (though health insurance for students is less than €80/month). Finding a job can also be difficult (even as an EU citizen, language skills and cultural differences may stand in the way of employment; non-EU foreigners usually are even more limited in their options).

Why does the German government keep tuition free for foreign students? First of all, the costs of running a university are mostly fixed costs and especially in STEM subjects, German universities are running below capacity; second, students that meet the requirements (fluent in German, generally capable of supporting themselves, interested in studying abroad) are sufficiently likely to stay after they've gotten their degree: they'll be valued high-skill immigrants who'll contribute to the economy and probably pay more in taxes later than they received in free tuition.

[1] https://www.daad.de/deutschland/studienangebote/sommerkurse/...

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That link is laughably bad, at least for Canadian universities. U of Toronto at #20 world wide? Impossible. People are not lining up to get into Toronto. I was offered a full scholarship at my first choice at Toronto, and didn't even get my first choice at Waterloo. Waterloo behind 7 or 8 other Canadian universities? Also impossible.

These rankings rely so heavily on research and reputation for scoring that you shouldn't look at it as an indicator of a university's academic quality. That would be the reason U of T is ranked so highly; they are even amongst competitive Ivy League schools! When I was applying for university (2007/08) U of T was handing out acceptance letters to everyone. Instead of rejecting you they would offer a place at a "lesse…

Waterloo very well known:

Physics, CompSci, Mathematics, Engineering, Optometry departments.

Good, but not great:

Science, Econ.

Average:

Traditional arts and humanities.

While Toronto has a first tier medical, legal, and maybe engineering programs. Everything else is just good or worse. for a top 3 school list in the country, Waterloo and Toronto both definitely deserve a spot, but I wouldn't say that Toronto is solidly the best in Canada; nor would I say that of Waterloo. But for the two of them to be that separated basically means that this list is measuring the wrong things.

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