Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#231

Post by cbd1984 » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 5:26 PM UTC

VLM wrote: post #92

tptacek wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea what this comparison is supposed to mean. Where does journalism come from? The Department of Journalism?

In the UK, most (admittedly not all) real journalism comes from mandatory government taxes paid to the BBC. You're looking at the private college equivalent of journalism here, not a free public uni.

> most (admittedly not all) real journalism comes from mandatory government taxes paid to the BBC.

Which doesn't influence the BBC at all. We know this because the BBC says it isn't influenced.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#232

Post by pedrosorio » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 5:26 PM UTC

akerl_ wrote: post #209

eqdw wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finnish students get allowance from the government for the duration of their studies (max ~60 months) and get government backed cheap loans which they start paying back after their studies. Thought experiment: American students also get government backed cheap loans. Further, since these government-backed cheap loans are often used to cover cost of living as well as tuition, they are a de-facto allowance from the g…

I expect it's because of who does the bargaining. In the US, where students take out loans and then pay educational institutions with that money, the student is the one bargaining. The student has very little leverage, comparatively, and they are not incentivized in the short term to drive a hard bargain because they're going to turn around and get the money via a loan. When the government is directly covering the co…

As I understand, in Finland universities are not private so there is no "negotiation between the state and the universities". Also, there is no tuition and students get stipends from the government while studying and can additionally take cheap loans if they need more income for their expenses.

The question should not be "what is different between the systems?" but "what, if anything, is similar?".

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#233

Post by bitkrieg » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 5:27 PM UTC

sprash wrote: post #214

levosmetalo wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social mobility is low everywhere in the world, and education is just one small factor so it's not easy to find a correlation there without looking at the bigger picture.

Maybe social mobility is low everywhere because smart parents breed smart kids. But considering genetics is deemed to be politically incorrect.

Because it's not the genes but the social environment which shapes the individual's progress in a society.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#234

Post by 0xFFC » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 5:29 PM UTC

lispm wrote: post #157

nhaehnle wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social mobility in Germany is very low, doing consistently worse than e.g. the Scandinavian countries (I remember seeing sources claim that it is even worse than the US, but there seems to be no agreement on that). However, as far as education is concerned, it would be wrong to blame universities. The German school system is very stratified, "locking in" a child's destiny at a young age. Via parents who understand th…

There are a lot of paths to Universities. What the German education system recognizes is this: not everyone needs to go to university. There are lots of other satisfying career paths.

personally I don't think universities is only for career ! people get more socialize ! get more experience ! and get more mature.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#235

Post by praxulus » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 5:30 PM UTC

jcampbell1 wrote: post #212

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, it's very risky. If you default on your loan, your credit will be terrible, and your credit determines the quality of your life. It determines what house you can get and whether you can get internet service. You have to pay your loan regardless of whether you have a job or not, or whatever your financial condition is. Exceptions can be made (you go through a loan handler, so it's whatever they say) but ove…

The US has a similar system to the UK called Income Based Repayment. It is not the default option, but I think it works similarly in principle.

I believe that can only be used on government loans, not private loans. Yet another reason to avoid private student loans if at all possible.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#236

Post by MAGZine » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 5:31 PM UTC

vasilipupkin wrote: post #164

Kesty wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. 14 place ETHZ (Switzerland) https://www.ethz.ch/en/studies/financial/tuition-fees.html $600 at semester = $1,200 (1 school year) 15 place John Hopkins(USA) http://www.collegecalc.org/colleges/maryland/johns-hopkins-u... $45,470 (1 school year) Obviously it's US against Switzerland, it's completely different and very hard to compare. But bigger fees doesn't really means better university.

Yes, but there are plenty of scholarhips and need based funds at John Hopkins. So this way a rich student has no problem paying either through loans or cash, but a poor student will be subsidized to a large extent. Also, if you want to major in something that is not in high demand then great, do it but why should everyone else subsidize your choices?

and if you're neither rich nor poor, you end up being one of the poor saps with a couple hundred thousand in student loans.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#237

Post by tehabe » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 5:31 PM UTC

eqdw wrote: post #117

taejo wrote: post #37

I'm a student at a German university, and I don't pay tuition fees, but I do pay about 400€ a year in "semester fees", of which the two largest components are "student services" and a compulsory season ticket for regional transport; student union membership and some kind of insurance contribution are also included.

> of which the two largest components are "student services" I also had to pay for student services at my (Canadian) university, for things like meal plans, supplemental health/dental/vision insurance, subsudized bus fare, etc. It cost about $300 a year, if I recall correctly. However, I was given the option of opting out. Are you not also given that option?

Those fees have no drop out, if the semester ticket had a drop out I guess nobody really wants to do that. You get to use all public transport of the region for a very low price. (Only exemption is, when a student goes abroad and can't use it anyway it the student can be exempt, usually there is also the possibility for poor students that the ticket is paid by the student body. At least we had the possibility to do that)

The other part is the Studentenwerk (Student's Works) which runs cafeterias, housing and other services which you can use for a low price or even free.

The third part is for the student body. In most states in Germany the student body is an legal public body. It is used by the student parliament den the student committee (AStA) to fund services and other stuff which is needed to represent students and their needs. Usually the semester ticket is not made between the university and the transportation company but between the student body and the company, therefore the AStA is negotiating the contract about it. (depends on the university).

We also had three permanent employees, which helped a lot.

Insurances of any kind is not included.

Full disclosure, I used to be the chair of a student committee of the student body of an German university.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#238

Post by tomp » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 5:32 PM UTC

xixixao wrote: post #168

thro1237 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only provide anecdotal evidence. I come from a poor family and studied in India in a government university by paying $20/year. The cost of providing that education was estimated at $1000/year and private universities used to charge as much. If the government had not provided that subsidy, I would not have taken a loan to the tune of $1000/year because that would have been too risky. I would have opted for the l…

It's not so much anecdotal as circumstantial. If everyone was taking the loan, you probably would too. It is the same in England, were students took loans for 3,5k pounds a year and now even 9k a year. Now I am not saying that the British system is the ideal (pros and cons) but I can certainly provide some more anecdotal evidence of many people who study for free (in the Czech Republic) and are basically wasting the…

> but I can certainly provide some more anecdotal evidence of many people who study for free (in the Czech Republic) and are basically wasting the system resources (both in terms of taking up spaces in classes and having the tax status of a student).

That's more of an anecdotal evidence of a shitty public university system. I don't know how it works in the Czech Republic other than from your comment, but in Slovenia, it's extremely wasteful, even though it doesn't need to be.

The primary issue is that students have awesome tax and other financial benefits. First, you don't pay tax for (I'm not completely sure, but lets say) more than the minimum wage as a student. Then, you get subsidized food (lunch coupons), free healthcare (as long as one of your parents is employed) and lots of benefits with private companies (I had a bank card that allowed me free withdrawals anywhere in the EU, even in a different currency). Personally, I don't see an issue with free healthcare (I think it should be free for everyone, as it is in the UK), but tax breaks and lunches are a unnecessary benefit.

This issue is exploited by "perpetual students" - basically, there is no incentive, nor requirement, that you finish your studies "in time". The only limit is that you can have the student status until you're 26 years old, so many people stretch their studies beyond what's necessary and work for private businesses, gaining experience and not being taxed, for several years before they complete the last exams and graduate. (Then they complain that they can't get a job, because all the businesses prefer to hire students, because they're cheaper).

If education was free, but you were required to finish on time and there were no tax benefits of being a student, the system would waste much less money. To reduce the cost even more, the government could automatically give you a "nominal loan" that was automatically canceled when you finish your study, so only people who study and don't finish would have to pay, and you'd also have to pay for any additional years you need (e.g. if you fail a year).

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#239

Post by brkn » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 5:33 PM UTC

I started paying around 250 Euro when starting my study at the university (2009). This term I had to pay aroung 290 Euro.

The fee for the TU Berlin is composed of:

Verwaltungsgebühr (gem. § 2 Abs. 7 BerlHG) (administrative fee)

50,00 €

Beitrag zur Studierendenschaft (Contribution to the student body)

8,70 €

Beitrag zum Studentenwerk (Contribution to the Student Services)

48,77 €

Beitrag zum Semesterticket (Contribution to the semester ticket)

179,40 €

Beitrag zum Sozialfonds zum Semesterticket (Contribution to the Social Fund for Semesterticket)

3,50 €

= 290,37 €

Of course it is still much cheaper than to study in other countries. But the fees are growing and you have to pay for the semester ticket, which is essentially a ticket for all public transportation in Berlin, even though you wouldn't need it.

*Translated with Google Translator

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#240

Post by seanflyon » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 5:36 PM UTC

Roboprog wrote: post #201

thro1237 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. I had to clear an 'entrance examination' to prove my aptitude in engineering. But the problem is the people who would benefit the most from free education (at the lower social/income strata) will most likely have poor aptitude for high-income potential professions as well, because of poor primary and secondary schools they would have had access to. I know that some institutes take such students and prov…

Do they have the problem of vastly differential funding between local schools in 21st century Germany?

In the US some public schools are vastly better than others even when they receive similar funding. Quality of the local schools is a significant factor in home prices.