Would be nice if they could scrap the fees so I could read the entire article...
Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn
221–230 of 536 posts
Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn
#222Whilst tuition fees in Ireland have not really risen - registration fees have gone from €200 to €3,000 over the 08-14'recession. In the UK fees have also risen. Finland and Denmark are free. I'm not that familiar with Southern or Eastern Europe. I think free third level institutions are important but I'm not opposed to the "free now tax later after certain pay threshold" education systems like Australia. Also [image]…
Sweden is also free. Plus you get 1100 SEK/month in assistance from the government.
Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn
#223Earlier quoted context omitted.
Social mobility is low everywhere in the world, and education is just one small factor so it's not easy to find a correlation there without looking at the bigger picture.
Maybe social mobility is low everywhere because smart parents breed smart kids. But considering genetics is deemed to be politically incorrect.
It's only politically incorrect when it's used as an excuse to ignore legitimate social issues as you've done here.
Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn
#224There's a big difference between no tuition fees and "free" education. All this means is that the cost of education is passed on to all tax payers. Now this can be justified, there is utility in having an educated workforce and society. However when everyone is paying there is a need to have a decision about how many people need that education to provide the benefits everyone gets. The UK is seeing these problems wit…
The current system of fees and loans just isn't working. We've had huge price inflation led by the universities because they know the government will back up the loan. Ironically, the extra money is often spent on new facilities (also built on credit), which are used to attract new students. It's not uncommon for a university to make a loss on undergraduate teaching. This needs to stop.
There's too much access to credit for both students and universities and too much of it is being wasted on competition and prestige in a market with few controls on quality. The transfer of wealth between students (and often their parents) and the universities is getting too large.
Any solution which relies on the student's access to credit is going to be exploited by the universities to gain access to more money. It's very similar to the housing market, few controls, too much cheap credit, and lots of emotional life decisions being made.
Abolishing fees would force the government to say no to the universities and keep the price under control. Students, no matter how wealthy, are too vulnerable a group to avoid exploitation under the current system.
Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn
#225I see lots of envy from US and UK based people, but not any thought given to the great opportunity: Germany accepts international students.
Why not go to a German university and get a quality education paid for by the German taxpayer? As a bonus, you'll get to learn German for free.
Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn
#226Not sure free education provides absolutely net positive results. More data might be required.
If you look at a country like Argentina, where university level education has been free probably since the country was founded you see issues. Running 10x more people through universities does not create 10x more prosperity. Lots of Medical Doctors in Argentina almost starve. Engineers drive taxis or own pizza joints. The only way some of these people can reliably make a solid change to their lives is to leave the country and seek work elsewhere. In that case the net effect within the nation is still negative.
Again, not sure how to think about something like this other than to operate under my admittedly preconceived notion that most people don't value or work hard at anything that is free. I could be wrong.
Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn
#227Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university fees and social mobility? On one hand it seems obvious that if you reduce costs of attending university you remove a barrier that would prevent economically disadvantaged people from attending. But on the other hand, university students, especially those at the best universities disproportionately come from better economic backgrounds and t…
Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university fees and social mobility?
Thank you for asking for data to inform our discussion here. Yes. There are a number of scholars of the economics of education who work full-time researching this issue. You are correct that university admission generally takes in young people from more prosperous families all over the world--because young people from such families don't have to enter the labor force immediately after completing compulsory schooling to support themselves or to support other family members.
The best evidence from international studies suggests the policy announced by Germany is not the best policy for ensuring access to higher education. An Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) international study reports, "Student financial support systems that offer loans with income-contingent repayment to all students combined with means-tested grants can be an effective way to promote access and equity while sharing the costs of higher education between the state and students."[1] Reading this study will provide more background information.
My recollection of the international research studies I have read is that the best mix of quality of higher education and access to higher education by students of all economic backgrounds is to have a mixed system (nonsystem) of higher education in a country, with some public universities with very heavy tax subsidies so that list price is low (but admission is hard to gain), some private universities that accept students with more money (or more willingness to take out loans on the idea that investing in higher education has return on investment), and some privately funded scholarships specific to students rather than specific to what institutions the students enroll in. Examples of countries with such nonsystems that produce a lot of access to higher education of good quality for a lot of students include the United States (where black people, who are often poor, attend college at a higher rate than French people in France do, as I recall reading), and more recently Japan (which now also has such a mixed nonsystem, parallel to its national universities), and Taiwan. I have also read the Norway and other Nordic countries do well in providing a lot of access to reasonably good higher education, with perhaps a different mix of providers.
A 2013 article from the Times Higher Education Supplement[2] has an interesting discussion of international trends in financing higher education.
[1] http://www.oecd.org/education/skills-beyond-school/49729932....
[2] http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/features/a-different-w...
Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn
#228Earlier quoted context omitted.
That seems like a really low amount to pay for tuition. In the US, many universities charge upwards of $20,000 per year, some as high as $100,000 a year.
Are you going to cite facts to back up your claims of a $100,000 university? You roughly doubled the tuition, room and board, and required fees of NYU, commonly cited as the most expensive private U.S. university.
Well, an MBA from Stanford is $100,000 per year.
http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/programs/mba/financial-aid/cost-...
Yale cost of attendance for undergrad is $63,250 per year.
Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn
#229Earlier quoted context omitted.
University rankings are full of manure if you will pardon my French. The model they use favors big general universities with a strong research department. Also how do you evaluate the learning environment? Number of flat screen tvs per student? Number of millions spent on sports facilities? Teaching: the learning environment (worth 30 per cent of the overall ranking score) Research: volume, income and reputation (wor…
Sure, but German universities are also surprisingly mediocre considering how good the Germans are at everything else.
The parent post was challenging the definition of "mediocre".
Given that such "mediocre" universities are able to sustain one of the most powerful economies in the world, they must not be so mediocre.
Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn
#230Earlier quoted context omitted.
You mean like in the movie, Divergent?
Nope. Divergent 's screening process involved bloodletting to choose a career path, then an aggressive testing process where those who fail were cast outside polite society with zero chance of ever pursuing any other options.
I am from Iran and we have something similar to what you say ! believe me ! this doesnt work ! this is complete disaster (if you were in Iran you could understand what I am talking about , most people simply hate what they chose )! most people don't like what they chose ! and changing path have so many consequence , thus no one actually go for changing its branch/path!