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Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

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Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. There's an industry in massive need of disruption. I'm thinking a mid-range android phone + some servos + software would do the trick. Let's say one year's dev for a reasonable engineer, so $100k + $300 in parts. Make a 1-Iraq-war-day's worth, and you'd have the unit price down to hundreds of dollars, not tens of thousands.

You'll need radiation hardening, a more precise inertial measurement unit (six axis gyro), and extreme reliability and lifetime that no consumer electronics device provides. The labor and materials cost, plus electronics mentioned above, is a lot more than $300. I also doubt you'll find a single engineer with the required aerospace and electrical engineering skills - you don't build an flight control surface control…

Radiation hardening is a requirement to protect the arsenal from EMP attacks in a large scale conflict with a nuclear component. This will hopefully be a rare or nonexistent occurrence, and hardening should not be considered a requirement for bombs used on Al Qaeda and IS (and nearly all other expected enemies). There is a place for radiation hardened munitions in the arsenal for deterrance, and there is also a place for some that are not, and these should be the ones we drop in "low intensity" conflicts, with the occasional release of a hardened munition to act as a quality control test.

Reliability is obviously a concern, but the procurement process should force contractors to open their designs to qualified competitors after a certain period of monopoly profits to recoup their research expenses, sort of like the same way that brand name drugs are eventually forced to compete with generics. Just because these designs are generally national security secrets doesn't mean that the original developer should own the equivalent of an infinite patent on the technology.

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#192

It always amazes me how seemingly careless they were with these nuclear devices back then. To know that such a devestating bomb was handled by a sultry, shirtless youngster, in a shed on a small island in the Pacific... It reminds me of the Slotin Incident ( http://www.damninteresting.com/bitten-by-the-nuclear-dragon/ ) where dr. Louis Slotin accidently slipped the screwdriver he used to separate two plutonium/uraniu…

I'm no nuclear physicist but I think there wasn't a danger of dropping the a-bomb accidentally. If I recall from reading about it the a-bomb needed a huge electronic catalyst to start the fission processes. In fact a lot of time was spent setting up the timer to determine when to start the reaction during the bomb descent. I'm just recollecting so i could be wrong.

The Hiroshima bomb, which was a uranium gun bomb, was quite easy to set off accidentally. It was just a gun tube, with a propellant charge of powder in a silk bag, just like naval guns of the period, and fired by an ordinary detonator. The crew of the Enola Gay was under orders that if they had to return to base, they were to drop the bomb into deep water, rather than trying to land with it. It could easily have been set off in a crash or fire.

The plutonium bomb was an implosion bomb, and had to be set off with the simultaneous ("Single point detonation safe" bombs came years later.

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. There's an industry in massive need of disruption. I'm thinking a mid-range android phone + some servos + software would do the trick. Let's say one year's dev for a reasonable engineer, so $100k + $300 in parts. Make a 1-Iraq-war-day's worth, and you'd have the unit price down to hundreds of dollars, not tens of thousands.

You'll need radiation hardening, a more precise inertial measurement unit (six axis gyro), and extreme reliability and lifetime that no consumer electronics device provides. The labor and materials cost, plus electronics mentioned above, is a lot more than $300. I also doubt you'll find a single engineer with the required aerospace and electrical engineering skills - you don't build an flight control surface control…

Sigh. I should have pointed out that I used to be an Air Force engineer. Although my post was a massive oversimplification, it was not for any of the reasons you pointed out. No, dev time would not be more than 1 engineer, at least not for the bomb guidance part. Most bombs that are dropped do not need massive accuracy - anywhere in a 10m radius will do the job nicely. There ate a few targets where you want 1m accuracy, but that's the exception. A phone 'a sensors should be able to do the job sufficiently well.

No, where you're really going to get burned in dev is hooking the bomb up to the aircraft's targeting system. That's a world of pain right there. The best solution might probably involve making a Bluetooth widget that hooks up to the aircraft and then talks to the bomb via radio. They could be pre-paired in the factory. Not ideal though. You're also going to need to spend a ridiculous sum of money on sales, just to get your foot in the door.

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#194

It always amazes me how seemingly careless they were with these nuclear devices back then. To know that such a devestating bomb was handled by a sultry, shirtless youngster, in a shed on a small island in the Pacific... It reminds me of the Slotin Incident ( http://www.damninteresting.com/bitten-by-the-nuclear-dragon/ ) where dr. Louis Slotin accidently slipped the screwdriver he used to separate two plutonium/uraniu…

Ignoring the nuclear device aspect of it, I would think that these days anyone spraying any kind of sealant or paint these days in a commercial setting would have PPE to avoid breathing the stuff in.

As well as the health and safety aspect I imagine that during times of war, your personal long term health outlook pales in comparison to the short-medium term survival possibilities.

Hence, I imagine that many servicemen and women didn't see themselves as having a long life span. Maybe not consciously, but certainly subconsciously.

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

remind us again of the fundamentals of moral calculus: how many rongs make a right?

Point out a horror resulting from Hiroshima or Nagasaki that tops human infant vivisection.

Point out how e.g. the My Lai massacre does not justify me murdering your entire family and everyone you know in a slightly less horrible way.

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I advise those that get misty eyed over Hiroshima and Nagasaki to look into Unit 731: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

remind us again of the fundamentals of moral calculus: how many rongs make a right?

You are confusing two moral issues. You're talking about revenge, and the Christian moral position is of course, that nothing justifies revenge.

(But keep in mind, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism and others all regulate revenge instead. Revenge is certainly justified under those moral systems, and the revenge is usually bigger than the event that "justified" the revenge. Judaism, but especially Islam is especially famous for having revenge punishments so extreme (I should say so extremely stupid) that they have triggered civil wars on occasion (of course these come from the Roman Empire's late-empire laws, which had a justice system that can reasonably be called "based on terror"). Which moral system is right ?)

The moral issue here is the duty to stop or at least contain moral wrongs in progress, e.g. this Unit 731, the Soviet Union, ... The key difference being that revenge is after the fact and is unnecessary. The key thing about revenge is that it makes society worse off in the short term, both the person taking revenge and the person being punished (e.g. kids destroying a toy rather than giving it back).

To fight moral wrongs in progress the moral position is that it is justified to use any amount of force, but comparable force should be tried first. Collateral damage should be avoided, but if you can't stop a criminal without causing collateral damage, then it is acceptable to, for example, destroy property (if the police destroys your front door chasing a robber, you will not receive compensation, nor if they burn down your house, though insurance usually covers this). If someone fights, beat him a bit and lock him up. If someone has a knife or a gun and is (trying to) kill people, shoot him. If a country is raping and killing half a continent, ...

This differentiation can be found in the bible, and in any sane moral text. Hell, it can be found in the UNCHR (united nations convention on human rights).

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#197
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not clear that dropping the bomb was necessary to end the war. Was it even necessary to develop it? Eisenhower said "it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." At the time Truman said Japan had been "repaid many fold" for Pearl Harbor. In these new images there is a bit of graffiti on the bomb allegedly written by a Rear Admiral: "a second kiss for Hirohito". It seems to me like the mood in the US…

Considering that the "peace" faction's strategy was to force an invasion and massive casualty's (98% wastage for the first 5 waves) to help a negotiated settlement I think Pres Eisenhower is as naive as Chamberlin was prior to ww2

> Considering that the "peace" faction's strategy was to force an invasion and massive casualty...

The notion that the alternative to the bombings was an invasion is an utterly pernicious falsehood. It is a matter of record that Japan had offered to surrender prior to the bombings, conditional only upon retaining the emperor. Those terms were subsequently accepted, after the bombings. The "peace" faction's strategy was to accept the surrender before conducting the bombings.

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#198
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most of them had an idea about atomic bombs back then, and what they were doing could end the war. Robert Heinlien was investigated by the FBI in the late 30's due to a description of atomic bombs in a story he'd written. So the idea was out there so to speack. What they were ignorant of, I'm pretty sure, was the actual magnitude of the destruction caused by the devices. My father was about 10 yrs old at the…

The atomic bombs were not more devastating to Hiroshima and Nagasaki than were conventional bomb campaigns to other similar cities in Japan toward the end of World War II. The damage from atomic bombs did not stand out as extraordinary to the Japanese leadership at the time. What forced Japan to surrender was Russia's declaration of war. http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/29/the_bomb_di... " ... But if you…

It wasn't so much that Hiroshima & Nagasaki were so awful, but rather the potential destruction they represented

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#199
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure the interval from test to drop is all that meaningful. If you can build one, you can build two. Also note that the design tested at Trinity was not the design used on Hiroshima. The Little Boy design used on Hiroshima was a gun-type design that was so obvious it would work that it wasn't felt that any testing was required. The Fat Man design used on Nagasaki was vastly more complex (but much more efficie…

>the war would have ended without them. How do we really know this? The Japanese were ready for a long drawn out decades conflict. The US forces were war-weary and war was draining the economy. This could have gone on with quite some time, or ended in a frozen conflict that would reignite periodically. Who knows, but a quick non-nuclear win was certainly not in the cards. >would the superpowers have been as restraine…

> How do we really know this? The Japanese were ready for a long drawn out decades conflict. The US forces were war-weary and war was draining the economy. This could have gone on with quite some time, or ended in a frozen conflict that would reignite periodically. Who knows, but a quick non-nuclear win was certainly not in the cards.

A quick non-nuclear win was very much on the cards. The soviet union had just entered the war. The navy knew that it couldn't protect the homeland and didn't have any planes. There was, at the very least, a substantial faction in the cabinet that wanted to surrender, and had the support of the emperor in this. Can we be sure the war would have ended quickly? No. Can we be sure that the human cost would have been less than the ~200,000 civilian deaths caused by the bombs? Definitely not - conventional firebombing could have inflicted those kind of casualties if the war had continued for as little as another week or two. But a decade-long conflict or frozen ceasefire is really implausible; the balance of conventional forces was really overwhelming at that point.

> Arguably, if the US used nukes on Chinese soldiers during the Korean conflict, as some generals advised, there would be no North Korea. We'd have a cowed China and built a single free and democratic Korea, essentially one large South Korea. Instead we have one of the worst regimes the world has ever seen as a client state of China, who uses China's political influence and muscle to threaten the West with nuclear war every day. So, progress?

You could equally argue that if the US had given up and pulled out of Korea entirely, instead of North and South Korea we'd have a country like Vietnam, which is doing pretty well. Or that if the Soviet Union had used nukes to conquer the world we'd have peace everywhere. Everyone thinks they're the "good guy"; any moral principle that would allow the US to use nukes would seem to allow other countries to do so too.

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#200
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point out a horror resulting from Hiroshima or Nagasaki that tops human infant vivisection.

Point out how e.g. the My Lai massacre does not justify me murdering your entire family and everyone you know in a slightly less horrible way.

You're welcome to try. Please leave a printout of your preferred funeral procedures where it will be found on your body.

US POWs ended up picking up the tab for My Lai.

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