Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Prison Bankers Who Profit from the Inmates

time.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 132 posts

Re: Prison Bankers Who Profit from the Inmates

#51

Post by res0nat0r »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #47
rayiner wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell, JPay is picked because it's the biggest. Any evidence the competitors wouldn't do the same once they got the contracts?

Write it into the contracts that they cant? The government is the entity with power here. The government regularly dictates all kinds of terms for their contracts. All the time.

If you read the article you will see that they do it most likely cheaper than the prison can do:

JPay’s rapid rise stems in part from the generous deal it offers many prison systems. They pay nothing to have JPay take over handling financial transfers. And for every payment it accepts in these states — prisoners typically receive about one per month — the company sends between 50 cents and $2.50 back to the prison operator.

The government does have the power, and they most likely are outsourcing this part of their non core infrastructure like most other companies do, to save money.

Re: Prison Bankers Who Profit from the Inmates

#52

Post by rdtsc »

morgante wrote: post #50
bcoates wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good place to start is to refuse to cooperate with evil. The justice system depends on the active and passive cooperation of the general public. Do not call the police. If the police wish to speak with you, on any matter, politely decline. If a known police or corrections employee tries to do business with you or at a place you work, inform them that their kind are not welcome here. Don't underestimate the extent t…

> Do not call the police. What? So if I'm getting mugged, murdered, or robbed I should just accept it? Or maybe I should build a personal arsenal so as to protect myself from all possible threats from criminals? This all sounds ridiculously Hobbesian to me. I'm no fan of the police, but the alternative isn't a state of nature.

Maybe the advice is don't call the police unless you absolutely have to. Now you might ask, well who calls the police just for fun or when they don't need them. Well when there is a family dispute I heard once a parent would call the police to "talk some sense" into their child who is throwing a tantrum. Then police come and child in a hysterical state swats at them with a spoon and gets shot and killed on the spot.

You might see neighbours across the street being loud, call the police and they come to your house instead and shoot your dog.

So by no means call if you have but know how to interact with them.

Re: Prison Bankers Who Profit from the Inmates

#53

Post by ObviousScience »

morgante wrote: post #50
bcoates wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good place to start is to refuse to cooperate with evil. The justice system depends on the active and passive cooperation of the general public. Do not call the police. If the police wish to speak with you, on any matter, politely decline. If a known police or corrections employee tries to do business with you or at a place you work, inform them that their kind are not welcome here. Don't underestimate the extent t…

> Do not call the police. What? So if I'm getting mugged, murdered, or robbed I should just accept it? Or maybe I should build a personal arsenal so as to protect myself from all possible threats from criminals? This all sounds ridiculously Hobbesian to me. I'm no fan of the police, but the alternative isn't a state of nature.

What are the police going to do about your being mugged?

I find it interesting that out of three examples, you happened to list one where the police can't possibly intercede without already being there, and your calling only serves to start a pretend hunt for lost property (hint: finding your stolen laptop is not their top priority), but will serve as justification if they want to rough up some local tough later.

Again, what do you think the police are going to do if you've already been mugged? I'm genuinely curious as to why you listed that as a case you should call the police in.

Re: Prison Bankers Who Profit from the Inmates

#54

Post by rdtsc »

innguest wrote: post #12
rayiner wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. As noted in the article, everything was fine (pay $1.50 for a money order and $0.50 for postage) until people pushed to get private contractors involved. You can say "government created the problem" but that's totally obtuse. Should people who commit armed robbery (like the man in the article) not be in jail? If they should be, someone has to take care of their logistical needs. The drumbeat since Reagan ha…

You're being myopic on purpose. > The drumbeat since Reagan has been that private companies Companies! Plural! The free market cannot exist when there is One True Company that the government let operate and Oh! See! The One True Company is charging too much so clearly free markets don't work. Please.

> Companies! Plural!

JPay or JPay? What will the benevolent invisible hand pick. It is anyone's guess really.

> The free market cannot exist

That much I agree with.

> ... when there is One True Company that the government let operate and Oh!

Guess what happens if there there is a second JPay? Yes. It gets gobbled up by the first and becomes The One True Company.

It is as if the invisible hand of the market is really invisible, maybe even a fantasy. And in reality it needs a very visible hand of lobbyists and government. To either exert laws in its favor. Or constant "adjustment" via monopoly laws to prevent showing the obvious failure with the "free market".

Re: Prison Bankers Who Profit from the Inmates

#55

Post by mreiland »

rayiner wrote: post #21
innguest wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There isn't "one company." Ok, so lest we shift the conversation - as right now we're talking about the specific prison and the specific banking corporation that this prison is using as described in the full article - please tell me who is the competitor to JPay. Don't give me "different departments of corrections" blah blah blah. I'm arguing the system as explained in the article is broken specifically because JPa…

Is your assertion that there is no free market just because any given prison only contracts with one payment service? Is there no free market in cleaning services because my building only contracts with one provider? Is it only a free market if every individual transaction is put up for bidding?

how about answer his question? Who is currently JPay's competitor?

You can't answer the question for a reason bub.

Re: Prison Bankers Who Profit from the Inmates

#56

Post by rdtsc »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #22
rayiner wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your assertion that there is no free market just because any given prison only contracts with one payment service? Is there no free market in cleaning services because my building only contracts with one provider? Is it only a free market if every individual transaction is put up for bidding?

Who makes the decision to contract with that one payment serivce? Is it the government? If so, is it the government that's making the bad decisions or the payment service?

Does it matter? It is the inmates and their family who get scammed in the end.

Arguing between "oh is it the government, or the market? don't know let's have a long discussion about it". The article clearly shows there isn't much of a separation between. These companies (in this case single company) is heavily lobbying and bribing government officials with kickbacks and such tricks.

I wouldn't be surprised that when some prison official retires she/he gets to work as a "consultant" for JPay.

Hell, these people are infants compared to what is going on in the rest of the industries -- military, healthcare, agrobiz, telecoms.

Repeat after me "the there is no effective difference between the governmental agencies and the large companies and conglomerates". It is the same people just playing musical chairs. FDA chairman worked for Monsanto (as an example). Ex procurement general works for Northrop Grumman and so on.

Objectively, can anyone say that isn't a rational outcome of a the "free market"? I can't. The best and easiest way to turn a profit at that scale is regulatory capture. A few millions in bribes have a chance of getting back billions in profits in the future.

Re: Prison Bankers Who Profit from the Inmates

#57

Post by concerto »

Two stories next to each other on the home page with someone called Ryan Shapiro in them, in both cases he is 37. One where he is an foia activist [1], and this one where he runs a company profiting from prisoner's families. Are they the same people or is this just a strange coincidence?

[1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8390642

Re: Prison Bankers Who Profit from the Inmates

#58

Post by rdtsc »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #40
rayiner wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But when the government privatizes services, that agency problem always exists. Instead of contracting to one service like any other entity, government would always need to contract with several. You're just making a stronger argument for not privitizing government services. Moreover, laying all the blame at the feet of government for these companies being scumbags is precisely why I said private industry has the wro…

>Instead of contracting to one service like any other entity, government would always need to contract with several No, the government is the entity making a selection among several choices, and is the entity in the position to negotiate the rates. Therefore they could bargain for lower rates if they wanted. Misrepresenting the choices isn't making your case.

> and is the entity in the position to negotiate the rates.

But Lower rates for whom? Inmates. Why would prison officials care if inmates get lower rates?

Re: Prison Bankers Who Profit from the Inmates

#59

Post by jonas21 »

concerto wrote: post #57

Two stories next to each other on the home page with someone called Ryan Shapiro in them, in both cases he is 37. One where he is an foia activist [1], and this one where he runs a company profiting from prisoner's families. Are they the same people or is this just a strange coincidence? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8390642

Coincidence. This is the FOIA activist: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/11/foia-ryan-shapir...

Re: Prison Bankers Who Profit from the Inmates

#60

Post by cgag »

Fjolsvith wrote: post #18

The prison phone systems are also bilking families. In the Alaska prison system, I had to call collect to my family. Phone calls were limited to 15 minutes and they cost my family $33 per call. I hated calling them because I felt so bad about that cost.

They normally charge outrageous amounts for long distance calls, which is basically all their calls. Last year the FCC limited the max rate of calls to 25 cents a minute, or 3.75 for a 15 minute call. Still outrageous, but at least not as insane. They usually charge much less for local calls, and there are a lot of services that will set up a number local to the prison and forward calls to cell phones. It's easy enough to set a number yourself with twilio if you're technically inclined, but most people with family in prisons are unfamiliar with things like twilio or google voice.

[1]http://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-reduces-high-long-distance-c...

Post reply on HN