Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews • Hacker News Board

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#11

Post by comrh » Tue, Sep 30, 2014, 6:16 PM UTC

vaishaksuresh wrote: post #8

Sexism is something that is rampant in the whole tech industry. I feel bad about it, but I don't see how YC or HN is responsible for policing the posts. Sure, you could have a report button and couple of mods to look at them and approve or reject. That model however is not scalable and downright silly. The bigger issue is with the society and people's mindset and it is up to the people to not be sexist. Having said t…

"...incapable people should not get preferential treatment and held against a lower standard." That is a fallacy. Certain types of sex/race/genders get special treatment now, often called "privilege", because of a history of systematic repression of other people. People are just trying to make the field actually level, not give preferential treatment to "incapable people".

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#12

Post by solipsism » Tue, Sep 30, 2014, 6:43 PM UTC

comrh wrote: post #10

angersock wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexism and racism are views on life, much like religion and capitalism--I don't have to agree with them without respecting them as views held by other people. Silly, stupid views that I disagree with and find counter-productive, but it is their right to think in that wrongheaded fashion and talk about it. I agree that making policy decisions based on racism and sexism, especially when the affected population has no a…

How can you have things "relatively civil" if people engage in sexism and racism?

Exactly. Parent wants HN kept relatively civil from his/her perspective. When it comes to other people's perspectives, no holds barred.

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#13

Post by angersock » Tue, Sep 30, 2014, 7:12 PM UTC

comrh wrote: post #10

angersock wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexism and racism are views on life, much like religion and capitalism--I don't have to agree with them without respecting them as views held by other people. Silly, stupid views that I disagree with and find counter-productive, but it is their right to think in that wrongheaded fashion and talk about it. I agree that making policy decisions based on racism and sexism, especially when the affected population has no a…

How can you have things "relatively civil" if people engage in sexism and racism?

There are ways of discussing and holding viewpoints that--in the strictest sense of the term--are racist or sexist. Talking about how best to accomodate maternity leave and schedule work is inherently sexist: it is an issue that does not apply to both men and women. Talking about how to handle racial profiling in targeted advertising is inherently racist: it is an issue that is tuned to your views about what messaging works best for a particular race.

One can have these viewpoints and maintain civil discourse. One can even have viewpoints that are less pragmatic; e.g., violent crimes clearly committed more frequently by one race over others. In such a case, somebody can civilly point out numbers and studies that refute that viewpoint, and at the point one can either accede or agree to disagree.

Being civil doesn't have anything to do with agreeing with people, or even being right.

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#14

Post by danilocampos » Tue, Sep 30, 2014, 7:20 PM UTC

vaishaksuresh wrote: post #8

Sexism is something that is rampant in the whole tech industry. I feel bad about it, but I don't see how YC or HN is responsible for policing the posts. Sure, you could have a report button and couple of mods to look at them and approve or reject. That model however is not scalable and downright silly. The bigger issue is with the society and people's mindset and it is up to the people to not be sexist. Having said t…

>Having said that, I don't think any business has to do anything special for being inclusive to sex/race/gender etc.

That's nice.

The guy in charge of Y Combinator disagrees with you. Which is the whole point of the post.

http://blog.ycombinator.com/diversity-and-startups

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#15

Post by uncoder0 » Tue, Sep 30, 2014, 7:41 PM UTC

sequoia wrote: post #2

the tl;dr is 1. HN culture is (generally) sexist & racist, a "bro-fest" if you will. 2. ycomb profits from HN 3. ycomb says they're against sexism etc.: “We—the tech industry as a whole—need to fix this. Most importantly, it’s an ethical issue.” ... 4. ...but there seems to be no legitimate effort by YC to alter the culture & signal what's acceptable behavior (i.e. don't be racist) on hackernews.

I think expanding the ability to down-vote to more people would help show the true attitude on HN. Right now I can only push things up or flag them and often times don't have the time or fortitude to start a comment thread arguing with an ignorant racist. Currently at 419 karma I don't have the ability to simply press a downvote and get that trash grayed out or pushed to the bottom of the page.

A technical solution to a social problem rarely works but in this case I think it'd help. If what the OP implies is true, and it surely is to some degree, most of the people who have the ability to control visibility (downvote) would have achieved that ability through participation in the echo chamber. Achieving enough karma to downvote seems rather hard, if not impossible, if you're not subscribed to the prevailing groupthink.

But maybe this is me, as always, trying to find an engineering solution to the problem.

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#16

Post by solipsism » Tue, Sep 30, 2014, 7:47 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #13

comrh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you have things "relatively civil" if people engage in sexism and racism?

There are ways of discussing and holding viewpoints that--in the strictest sense of the term--are racist or sexist. Talking about how best to accomodate maternity leave and schedule work is inherently sexist: it is an issue that does not apply to both men and women. Talking about how to handle racial profiling in targeted advertising is inherently racist: it is an issue that is tuned to your views about what messagin…

Do you happen to be a white and/or male? The only reason I ask (rhetorically, obviously -- please don't answer) is that, if you are, you might fail to realize that your position is one of privilege in our society. One of those many privileges shared by you and me is that what society considers common, civil discourse is very rarely offensive to our personhoods. Others don't share that privilege. For others, what you would call civil discourse is full of barbarism, small mindedness, and offense.

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#17

Post by solipsism » Tue, Sep 30, 2014, 7:48 PM UTC

danilocampos wrote: post #14

vaishaksuresh wrote: post #8

Sexism is something that is rampant in the whole tech industry. I feel bad about it, but I don't see how YC or HN is responsible for policing the posts. Sure, you could have a report button and couple of mods to look at them and approve or reject. That model however is not scalable and downright silly. The bigger issue is with the society and people's mindset and it is up to the people to not be sexist. Having said t…

>Having said that, I don't think any business has to do anything special for being inclusive to sex/race/gender etc. That's nice. The guy in charge of Y Combinator disagrees with you. Which is the whole point of the post. http://blog.ycombinator.com/diversity-and-startups

Wonderfully said. People are failing to realize that the point is that YCombinator is being internally inconsistent.

Edit: allegedly being internally inconsistent

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#18

Post by vaishaksuresh » Tue, Sep 30, 2014, 8:17 PM UTC

comrh wrote: post #11

vaishaksuresh wrote: post #8

Sexism is something that is rampant in the whole tech industry. I feel bad about it, but I don't see how YC or HN is responsible for policing the posts. Sure, you could have a report button and couple of mods to look at them and approve or reject. That model however is not scalable and downright silly. The bigger issue is with the society and people's mindset and it is up to the people to not be sexist. Having said t…

"...incapable people should not get preferential treatment and held against a lower standard." That is a fallacy. Certain types of sex/race/genders get special treatment now, often called "privilege", because of a history of systematic repression of other people. People are just trying to make the field actually level, not give preferential treatment to "incapable people".

So in the process of making it level, the playing field is being changed to be favorable to certain individuals? If something changes by giving away opportunities to less qualified people, because their predecessors had been systemically repressed, it is probably the ego/guilt of the perpetrators. Provide extra opportunities to the current generation to develop and improve , but don't take it away from qualified people in the name of diversity/inclusivity. If a man and a woman apply for a job in all male startup, hire the most qualified person, not the person who makes your workforce more diverse.

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#19

Post by angersock » Tue, Sep 30, 2014, 8:21 PM UTC

solipsism wrote: post #16

angersock wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are ways of discussing and holding viewpoints that--in the strictest sense of the term--are racist or sexist. Talking about how best to accomodate maternity leave and schedule work is inherently sexist: it is an issue that does not apply to both men and women. Talking about how to handle racial profiling in targeted advertising is inherently racist: it is an issue that is tuned to your views about what messagin…

Do you happen to be a white and/or male? The only reason I ask (rhetorically, obviously -- please don't answer) is that, if you are, you might fail to realize that your position is one of privilege in our society. One of those many privileges shared by you and me is that what society considers common, civil discourse is very rarely offensive to our personhoods. Others don't share that privilege. For others, what you…

This polite yet sexist and racist comment is exactly the sort of civil discourse I'd like to see more of.

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#20

Post by comrh » Tue, Sep 30, 2014, 8:50 PM UTC

vaishaksuresh wrote: post #18

comrh wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...incapable people should not get preferential treatment and held against a lower standard." That is a fallacy. Certain types of sex/race/genders get special treatment now, often called "privilege", because of a history of systematic repression of other people. People are just trying to make the field actually level, not give preferential treatment to "incapable people".

So in the process of making it level, the playing field is being changed to be favorable to certain individuals? If something changes by giving away opportunities to less qualified people, because their predecessors had been systemically repressed, it is probably the ego/guilt of the perpetrators. Provide extra opportunities to the current generation to develop and improve , but don't take it away from qualified peop…

THEY are being repressed, not only their predecessors. And to "hire the most qualified person" "denies the role of personal connections, wealth, background, gender, race, or education in an individual's success"[1]. It is overly simplistic to just say "hire the qualified person" when the person is qualified due to a huge amount of historical advantages. Do you really think there are so few women in tech because all the men are just more qualified?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/02/06/272646...