Live data from Hacker News

U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

bloomberg.com

171–180 of 350 posts

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#171
post #103

I hypothesize that this is a coordinated yet simple ruse to rebuild trust in these brands post-Snowden [1][2]. There was similar press coverage regarding the DEA and iCloud encryption that was misreported in a similar way [3]. The Intercept (where Glenn Greenwald is now reporting from) has a story on what data Apple can still easily give away if you do believe they can't decrypt individual machines [4]. But maybe you…

i think it's great to see ppl being skeptical of security claims from phone manufacturers. trying to secure a normal cellphone is pretty much impossible and if you're storing sensitive information on one, you are just waiting to get fucked. i think all this "sound and fury" is likely a ruse to entice ios and android users into a false sense of safety post snowden disclosure. being able to encrypt your drive doesn't m…

> being able to encrypt your drive doesn't matter if your OS and its applications are exploitable

Because, you know, security measures that aren't 100% perfect are on equal footing as no security at all. Seriously? That's a huge fallacy.

In the end, it's all about the cost. When speaking of the NSA, we are primarily concerned with mass surveillance, because lets be honest, if you're targeted directly then you don't stand a chance, since they can always infiltrate your home then watch your fingers typing your password. And if these companies are raising the cost of doing mass surveillance, with encryption doing just that, then that's a good thing. It is in their interest to do so because the bad press they are getting is hurting their bottom line - you may not see it, but post Snowden at least governments and big corporations are starting to think of software/hardware stacks provided by non-US companies and now they have the ultimate argument for the balkanization of the Internet, which can't be a good thing.

But lets also think about things closer to home. I'm not from the US, I couldn't care less about the NSA. But I do care about my personal data ending up in the wrong hands - personal emails and photos, details on my accounts, projects, written down feelings and so on.

There are always organized crime syndicates looking for generating a quick buck. There are always incompetent clerks in your government institutions that out of an oversized sense of responsibility are doing stupid things. For example my personal identification details ended up in a local newspaper by mistake, because of a non-public contract leaked out of a public institution. Now how can I trust these people to handle my data? How could I let any cop inspect my laptop or phone on the spot as part of routine checks, which from what I hear, are becoming more common?

Yeah, encryption is not a good solution in the face of insecure apps, binary blobs and a potent global adversary. Thing is, for most people that global adversary is not the immediate threat they are facing and even for that global adversary, encryption makes surveillance more expensive.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#172
post #116
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has staked their reputation on the line and said "send us an NSL if you like, we have nothing we can give you". And the cryptographic principles, if executed properly, are sound. Maybe they're lying. Maybe Snowden 2.0 will come out next year and tell us the truth and instantly destroy their credibility. That's a gamble I wouldn't take with my company, but it's plausible. See I figure, if you're a threat to Nati…

Yeah, that's how I see it. Since Apple's software isn't open source, it's possible they're lying. However, if they are, at some point the government is going to try to present evidence they gleaned through this lie, and that fact will leak out. I think it would be an enormous risk for Apple to blatantly lie about something they put in black and white on their website. So I tend to think they're telling the truth. May…

Why do you assume the fact will leak out? I thought the FBI disclosed they used parallel construction as an MO.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#173

James Soiles, a deputy chief of operations at the Drug Enforcement Administration, said the stakes in resolving the dispute are high. Stakes for who? For LEA of course they are, they make the job much harder. Maybe this will help end the drug war and some of the other silly things we do.

We could eliminate this guy's concerns by just shutting down the DEA altogether. End of problem.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#174
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that the decision to start encrypting data will just make it harder for local law enforcement to attain your data. When they subpoena Apple for your data they will get the encrypted data. The NSA will probably also receive your data encrypted however they probably won't have any problem unencrypting it.

When they subpoena Apple, they will get cloud data which will not be decrypted. The issue is whether they would be able to give Apple a device and say 'decrypt plz'.

If the device is backed up in iCloud, Apple already has the decryption key and will have to provide it if they receive a supoena. The only way you're safe, even in theory, is to only do local encrypted backups.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#175
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have leaked it with Apple's warranty canary which was removed.

That definitely could imply they have received an NSL. But as a user, when I say "they would leak that they're fighting it", I would consider that completely insufficient. If they are pulling the kind of crap you say they are, then it will come out. Guaranteed. And then nobody, including me, will ever trust them again. editing my comment since I can't reply to hellbanner: Percentage doesn't matter, it only takes one.…

(Clarifying I'm understanding your position): You're assuming that there are enough % of Apple employees who would refuse secrecy bribes || fear individual NSLs to leak something in public in a situation where they don't fear for their safety?

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#176
post #152

I was living in DC during the first Crypto Wars of the late 1990s and covering them as a reporter (I've since shifted to working on recent.io, of course). It sure looks like this will be Crypto Wars II: the Feds Strike Back. From my experience a key question to ask is: What would the eventual law say? Will it make it a federal felony to possess an encrypted phone? Or a federal felony to sell one? The FBI endorsed H.R…

I may be as naive as hell here, but when you go from, "we don't want US citizens selling crypto devices to terrorists" to "Timmy's going to see the inside of a jail cell for 20 years for giving Mark a copy of TailsOS" I just can't see how a judge or jury would let it go that far, and I don't think unintended consequences have ever gotten that bad. It just smacks of fear-mongering. "They'll literally lock up your chil…

> I just can't see how a judge or jury would let it go that far

Oh they will, and in a few short years this will be the new status quo, and people will be wondering how we used to allow child pornographers and drug traffickers to hide behind encryption. YOU don't have anything to hide, do you?

Besides, when was the last time government-induced fear mongering failed? Not in the last decade.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#177
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, sorry, you're naive. :) The law != common sense. If a law is on the books, it may be applied broadly, even to Timmy and Mark. That's why it's important to ensure the laws are sensible before they're enacted. Here's one example. Let's say there's a 16-year old girl and a 17-year old boy who are in a consensual dating relationship and, you know, take some racy photos of one other. The photos were taken consensuall…

Ah, but that plays into the US's very strange views on sex. It feels like an exception, rather than the general rule.

US has strange views on a lot of things, including the one in question – privacy.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#178
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have leaked it with Apple's warranty canary which was removed.

That definitely could imply they have received an NSL. But as a user, when I say "they would leak that they're fighting it", I would consider that completely insufficient. If they are pulling the kind of crap you say they are, then it will come out. Guaranteed. And then nobody, including me, will ever trust them again. editing my comment since I can't reply to hellbanner: Percentage doesn't matter, it only takes one.…

Sadly I bet most people would just shrug and say "well they are doing it for our own good".

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm sounds to me like they are trying to convince people to use their phones for illegal doings. Also, all of the comments in this thread (not this one specifically) make me wish HN threads root comments defaulted to collapsed so people might avoid duplicate root comments. Maybe...

That's an interesting idea. It's not often that people in law enforcement or military intelligence will come out publicly and say "if such-and-such adversary were to use this widely-available technology we'd be stymied!"

Possibly reminiscent of the Freakonomics suggestion for terrorists to buy life insurance from their bank.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#180
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be as naive as hell here, but when you go from, "we don't want US citizens selling crypto devices to terrorists" to "Timmy's going to see the inside of a jail cell for 20 years for giving Mark a copy of TailsOS" I just can't see how a judge or jury would let it go that far, and I don't think unintended consequences have ever gotten that bad. It just smacks of fear-mongering. "They'll literally lock up your chil…

Yep, sorry, you're naive. :) The law != common sense. If a law is on the books, it may be applied broadly, even to Timmy and Mark. That's why it's important to ensure the laws are sensible before they're enacted. Here's one example. Let's say there's a 16-year old girl and a 17-year old boy who are in a consensual dating relationship and, you know, take some racy photos of one other. The photos were taken consensuall…

Let's not overlook the fact that the law doesn't actually have to be applied, it can be a bargaining chip. The prosecution mentality is to 'throw the book' at defendants and then the defendant has to try to negotiate down from that starting point.

Firearms might be a good analogy here. You don't need to actually shoot a robber for your firearm to be effective. The mere presence of it is often enough to scare them off.

Post reply on HN