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U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

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Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#51

Post by lutorm »

tedks wrote: post #46

If you support this sort of system, you are saying that individuals should be able to place themselves above democracy. Like it or not, we have a legal system that entitles the government to execute lawfully obtained warrants. Tech companies seeking to make this harder are acting against democracy. It's time for Silicon Valley to decide what side it's on: Democracy, or the alternative.

Our democratic system has enacted laws that say encryption is legal. Why do you think following the law is somehow "acting against democracy" here?

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#52

Post by chroem- »

donohoe wrote: post #36

So.. its revealed that the NSA is abusing our privacy, and people react accordingly, and now legitimate law enforcement efforts are being thwarted. Don't blame the tech sector, let them blame the NSA's over-reaching charter

Nobody's law enforcement efforts are being thwarted. They just want to convince demographic A that their devices are unhackable and completely NSA-proof, and convince demographic B that anyone who values their civil liberties is a terrorist pedophile that hates freedom.

These companies are documented data providers for the NSA.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#54

Post by gnarbarian »

brational wrote: post #44
gnarbarian wrote: post #8

They are going straight into "think of the children mode" " Smartphone communication is “going to be the preferred method of the pedophile and the criminal. We are going to lose a lot of investigative opportunities." Apparently "what about the terrorists?" isn't as effective anymore. Let's hope the public will see through their manipulative talking points.

I don't understand this argument. Wouldn't law enforcement still be allowed to access phone records unecrypted if they have an actual suspect and court order?

Yes but they want the data on the mobile device. For example, I use textsecure when texting my friends. Its encrypted locally and over the wire so the records would only help them show who not what I was talking about.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#55

Post by rscott »

brational wrote: post #44
gnarbarian wrote: post #8

They are going straight into "think of the children mode" " Smartphone communication is “going to be the preferred method of the pedophile and the criminal. We are going to lose a lot of investigative opportunities." Apparently "what about the terrorists?" isn't as effective anymore. Let's hope the public will see through their manipulative talking points.

I don't understand this argument. Wouldn't law enforcement still be allowed to access phone records unecrypted if they have an actual suspect and court order?

Probably harder and takes longer than searching through a confiscated phone from a suspect.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#56

Post by Zigurd »

slg wrote: post #24
zachdunn wrote: post #5

This is a bit like protesting door locks because they make it harder to pop in and look around.

I don't support what the government is trying to do here, but minimizing this issue like this is not doing us any favors. The issue isn't that law enforcement can no longer "look around" your phone. The issue is that they can no longer get a warrant and use what is on your phone as evidence in an investigation or court case without the phone owner's cooperation. Basically your phone goes from being personal property…

There have always been tools and procedures for destroying documents to prevent unwanted access.

What's very very bad about this, in addition to the direct effects on people's privacy, is that it creates a class system of people who are allowed access to strong encryption while the cattle being farmed on this plantation are not.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#57

Post by williamcotton »

brational wrote: post #44
gnarbarian wrote: post #8

They are going straight into "think of the children mode" " Smartphone communication is “going to be the preferred method of the pedophile and the criminal. We are going to lose a lot of investigative opportunities." Apparently "what about the terrorists?" isn't as effective anymore. Let's hope the public will see through their manipulative talking points.

I don't understand this argument. Wouldn't law enforcement still be allowed to access phone records unecrypted if they have an actual suspect and court order?

With end-to-end encryption where the messages are encrypted and decrypted on the client it would not be possible for anyone with access to phone records or central servers to read what was said. They would need to obtain the private keys that are generated on the client devices themselves.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#58

Post by guelo »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #42

So this does actually pose an interesting conundrum, I think. Setting aside the specifics of this matter, I think that most people would accept that in some circumstances, covert surveillance of suspected criminals is an acceptable law enforcement tool. Of course, it must be subject to suitable (not rubber-stamped) judicial approval, rigorous guidelines, limitations etc. From that perspective, secure and encrypted co…

Getting access to your personal life recorder, which is what smartphones are, is not a "traditional surveillance tool" as you call it. It's a new surveillance tool that has shown up over the last 7 years. Before cops had access to every single thing you do via the smartphone, civilization did not collapse.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#59

Post by EGreg »

ary wrote: post #40
scintill76 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd say this about as close as you can get to a ringing endorsement Or they just want criminals to think that all they have to do is buy an Apple or Google phone, and they can't be caught.

> Or they just want criminals to think that all they have to do is buy an Apple or Google phone, and they can't be caught. There is a greater incentive to let Apple or Google do that kind of marketing and quietly exploit the vulnerabilities (ie, what's been happening with the NSA for some time now). If it had the appearance of working but actually didn't you wouldn't hear a peep from any government.

The smartest thing for the govt is to complain but do nothing.

Re: U.S. Law Enforcement Seeks to Halt Apple-Google Encryption of Mobile Data

#60

Post by brational »

williamcotton wrote: post #57
brational wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this argument. Wouldn't law enforcement still be allowed to access phone records unecrypted if they have an actual suspect and court order?

With end-to-end encryption where the messages are encrypted and decrypted on the client it would not be possible for anyone with access to phone records or central servers to read what was said. They would need to obtain the private keys that are generated on the client devices themselves.

But they'd still be able to do that given a warrant? Or is this unwarrantable protection, for lack of a better word?
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