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Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

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Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, most smart bombs (JDAMs) are just old, dumb bombs with a new "tail kit" containing a GPS and guidance electronics.

A tail kit that costs almost 10 times as much as the bomb.

OK.

(La Wik says the US Air Force is currently paying $27,000 per tail kit.)

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#122

It always amazes me how seemingly careless they were with these nuclear devices back then. To know that such a devestating bomb was handled by a sultry, shirtless youngster, in a shed on a small island in the Pacific... It reminds me of the Slotin Incident ( http://www.damninteresting.com/bitten-by-the-nuclear-dragon/ ) where dr. Louis Slotin accidently slipped the screwdriver he used to separate two plutonium/uraniu…

Back then? We haven't gotten all that much better according to John Oliver (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y1ya-yF35g)

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#123
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure the interval from test to drop is all that meaningful. If you can build one, you can build two. Also note that the design tested at Trinity was not the design used on Hiroshima. The Little Boy design used on Hiroshima was a gun-type design that was so obvious it would work that it wasn't felt that any testing was required. The Fat Man design used on Nagasaki was vastly more complex (but much more efficie…

>the war would have ended without them. How do we really know this? The Japanese were ready for a long drawn out decades conflict. The US forces were war-weary and war was draining the economy. This could have gone on with quite some time, or ended in a frozen conflict that would reignite periodically. Who knows, but a quick non-nuclear win was certainly not in the cards. >would the superpowers have been as restraine…

> We'd have a cowed China and built a single free and democratic Korea, essentially one large South Korea.

Yeah, one large, irradiated South Korea, ruled by a pathetic murderous dictator who would have friends in Washington D.C. instead of Moscow, and who would have killed people throughout the peninsula for being Communists[1], instead of being against Communists.

Yay for progress?

Fuck freedom and democracy. All those talk of freedom didn't do shit when Rhee murdered Koreans, when Park murdered Koreans, and when Chun murdered Koreans.

I know I can't really expect American soldiers to wage wars and get killed just to support the freedom of some third-world country they've never heard of, instead of ensuring the continuing political dominion of the US in a large portion of the world, but people could at least be honest about it.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#124

It always amazes me how seemingly careless they were with these nuclear devices back then. To know that such a devestating bomb was handled by a sultry, shirtless youngster, in a shed on a small island in the Pacific... It reminds me of the Slotin Incident ( http://www.damninteresting.com/bitten-by-the-nuclear-dragon/ ) where dr. Louis Slotin accidently slipped the screwdriver he used to separate two plutonium/uraniu…

I'm no nuclear physicist but I think there wasn't a danger of dropping the a-bomb accidentally. If I recall from reading about it the a-bomb needed a huge electronic catalyst to start the fission processes. In fact a lot of time was spent setting up the timer to determine when to start the reaction during the bomb descent. I'm just recollecting so i could be wrong.

In reality, the early weapons were not "single-point safe". That means that should a single one of those shaped charges be fired via static electricity, etc., that there would be at the least severe contamination and quite likely somewhat of a yield.

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#125
post #117

It always amazes me how seemingly careless they were with these nuclear devices back then. To know that such a devestating bomb was handled by a sultry, shirtless youngster, in a shed on a small island in the Pacific... It reminds me of the Slotin Incident ( http://www.damninteresting.com/bitten-by-the-nuclear-dragon/ ) where dr. Louis Slotin accidently slipped the screwdriver he used to separate two plutonium/uraniu…

It is not clear that dropping the bomb was necessary to end the war. Was it even necessary to develop it? Eisenhower said "it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." At the time Truman said Japan had been "repaid many fold" for Pearl Harbor. In these new images there is a bit of graffiti on the bomb allegedly written by a Rear Admiral: "a second kiss for Hirohito". It seems to me like the mood in the US…

"The use of the atomic bomb would have to be done with visual targeting, not by use of radar. [...] The targets should be 'large urban areas of not less than 3 miles in diameter existing in the larger populated areas… between the Japanese cities of Tokyo and Nagasaki… [and] should have high strategic value.' A list of possible targets that met this criteria was given [...] Of these, Hiroshima was noted as 'the largest untouched target not on the 21st Bomber Command priority list.' Tokyo, on the other hand, was 'now practically all bombed and burned out and is practically rubble with only the palace grounds left standing.' It was further noted that they had to take into account that the policy of the 20th Air Force was now 'systematically bombing out' cities 'with the prime purpose in mind of not leaving one stone lying on the other,' and that they would not likely reserve targets just for the Manhattan Project."

"Stimson left the meeting thinking Truman completely understood the matter, and the final target order — with Hiroshima, Kokura, Niigata, and Nagasaki (the latter added only then) — was sent out.

But what did Truman take away from this meeting? We can look at Truman’s own diary entry from July 25th:

" This weapon is to be used against Japan between now and August 10th. I have told the Sec. of War, Mr. Stimson, to use it so that military objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not women and children. Even if the Japs are savages, ruthless, merciless and fanatic, we as the leader of the world for the common welfare cannot drop that terrible bomb on the old capital or the new.

He and I are in accord. The target will be a purely military one and we will issue a warning statement asking the Japs to surrender and save lives. I’m sure they will not do that, but we will have given them the chance. It is certainly a good thing for the world that Hitler’s crowd or Stalin’s did not discover this atomic bomb. It seems to be the most terrible thing ever discovered, but it can be made the most useful. "

This passage reflects an incredible misconception. Truman appears, here, to believe that Hiroshima was 'a purely military' target, and that 'soldiers and sailors' would be killed, 'not women and children.' But of course every city on that list was inhabited primarily by civilians. And by the calculus of war being waged, every city on that list had a military connection — they produced weapons for the military."

http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2014/08/08/kyoto-misconceptio...

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#126
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the purpose of the bomb was to save many thousands more lives than it ended. An invasion of Japan would've cost an enormous number of lives. It would've also had a catastrophic effect on the civilian population, because they were being told that the American troops were there to enslave them. It has even been said that the propaganda being told to the Japanese civilians included the idea that the troops wou…

How many children was it worth killing to make sure Japan lost? What if the alternative to bombing Japan wasn't an invasion of Japan? How about using those bombs on or over invading fleets of Japanese - if Japan ever actually planned to invade the US?

You should look into the history of the relationship between e.g. Japan and Korea or Japan and China and see if anything interesting happened during the late 1930s or early 1940s. It might be the case that there were concerns other than simply "Will Japan attack the mainland".

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#127
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the war would have ended without them. How do we really know this? The Japanese were ready for a long drawn out decades conflict. The US forces were war-weary and war was draining the economy. This could have gone on with quite some time, or ended in a frozen conflict that would reignite periodically. Who knows, but a quick non-nuclear win was certainly not in the cards. >would the superpowers have been as restraine…

I don't think there's any chance of the war lasting more than a year or so longer than it did absent nuclear bombing. The US was preparing for a full-scale invasion. That invasion would have succeeded, albeit at great cost. No matter how stubborn the Japanese were about not surrendering, there was simply no way they could mount an effective long-term defense. Your counterfactual about North Korea seems rather weak. Y…

Instead of going for the quick win, you'd rather we had risked an invasion with five- to seven-figure casualties to each side, followed by years of necessarily yet insufficiently brutal occupation, followed in its turn by another war against a nation we'd just finished giving every reason in the world to want to wipe us off the face of the earth?

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's backwards of how apostrophes normally work. In all other cases, it is the right place to use an apostrophe: * ...about to be placed in Fat Man's casing. * ...about to be placed in the bomb's casing * ... about to be placed in its casing. One of those is not like the others.

It helps to understand how it actually works. The s in its does not point towards possession, it is simply part of the word "its". My, His, Hers, Ours, Yours, Theirs, Its. Not Me's, He's, She's, Us's, Your's, Their's, It's. English is an easy language. Most languages use a lot more words than all that to convey all that. English speakers don't have to deal with the singular second person, with a separate objective no…

This is all very interesting. I love a good grammar battle, but um... we're talkin' about bombs here!

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#129
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not clear that dropping the bomb was necessary to end the war. Was it even necessary to develop it? Eisenhower said "it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." At the time Truman said Japan had been "repaid many fold" for Pearl Harbor. In these new images there is a bit of graffiti on the bomb allegedly written by a Rear Admiral: "a second kiss for Hirohito". It seems to me like the mood in the US…

"The use of the atomic bomb would have to be done with visual targeting, not by use of radar. [...] The targets should be 'large urban areas of not less than 3 miles in diameter existing in the larger populated areas… between the Japanese cities of Tokyo and Nagasaki… [and] should have high strategic value.' A list of possible targets that met this criteria was given [...] Of these, Hiroshima was noted as 'the larges…

More likely he was using cya language. Either that or he was unbelievably ignorant.

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#130

Looks like HN has blown the sites quota out of the water... though as it redirects to http://www.alternatewars.com/cgi-sys/suspendedpage.cgi you've gotta wonder what the cgi is written in.

Remember that for Shellshock, it doesn't matter what language the CGI is written in, depending on how your server is configured to pass on environment variables... :-)
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