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Area programmer laments designers don’t use the same tools he does

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Re: Area programmer laments designers don’t use the same tools he does

#41
post #38

Open Source geometric kernel? It is called "Open Cascade": http://www.opencascade.org/ It represent decades of hard work from dozens of programmers.License is LGPL. Freecad is a very promising tool that uses the power of Opencascade only a little(Opencascade supports things that are way more complex than what freecad does). Everything in Freecad is a script in python.

Unfortunately, OpenCASCADE is an unmaintainable pile of code. There's https://github.com/tpaviot/oce but does anyone really want to maintain 3 million lines of poorly written source code? Here's what you will have to deal with if you dive in: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade :( So far the absolutely cleanest implementation I have seen is http://verbnurbs.com/ which is amazing. Seriously, go over here https://git…

I had no idea that verbnurbs existed. It's one reason for writing, to get wind of other projects I didn't find in my google searches. Thanks!

Re: Area programmer laments designers don’t use the same tools he does

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

zealotry? It's one comment in an article dealing almost entirely with other issues. Github has become the de-facto place to put code that you want others to work with, and it is a platform built to surface such projects and make them accessible in a consistent way. It's not the only such tool, but it is really familiar to a lot of people, and that makes collaboration slightly easier for those who are familiar with it…

"Github has become the de-facto place to put code" Maybe in some districts of SF and SV, but apart from that, NO I love Github and I think that it is way better than most of "industry standarts" but amazingly, some people still use self hosted solutions, because they need it.

I can't find a way to stretch the definition, for the kind of open-source projects he is very clearly discussing, that isn't some sort of reductivist #NotAllSourceRepositories or something.

Re: Area programmer laments designers don’t use the same tools he does

#43
post #10

> They are also not on github, which makes collaboration that much harder. This is now vim-emacs level zealotry. There are workflows which gasp do not mesh well with github. github issues/PRs have almost no metadata and absolutely none that the issue submitter can set.

I noticed that as well, I was hoping it was ignorant shorthand for "has a public repository, bug tracker and website".

Also, it's worse than vim-emacs zealotry, those at least have the benefit of being extremely powerful expert level tools. Those frequently, and maybe rightfully inspire some zealotry.

That same attitude towards popular, least common denominator tools is better called fanboyism than zealotry.

Re: Area programmer laments designers don’t use the same tools he does

#44
post #10

> They are also not on github, which makes collaboration that much harder. This is now vim-emacs level zealotry. There are workflows which gasp do not mesh well with github. github issues/PRs have almost no metadata and absolutely none that the issue submitter can set.

zealotry? It's one comment in an article dealing almost entirely with other issues. Github has become the de-facto place to put code that you want others to work with, and it is a platform built to surface such projects and make them accessible in a consistent way. It's not the only such tool, but it is really familiar to a lot of people, and that makes collaboration slightly easier for those who are familiar with it…

The author made "being on github" a hard requirement. I think it might have been made as a kind of shorthand for "on github or something equivalent" but you can't blame someone for taking the author at their word when they state it so plainly. And that stated sentiment is pretty insane.

Re: Area programmer laments designers don’t use the same tools he does

#45
post #41
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, OpenCASCADE is an unmaintainable pile of code. There's https://github.com/tpaviot/oce but does anyone really want to maintain 3 million lines of poorly written source code? Here's what you will have to deal with if you dive in: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade :( So far the absolutely cleanest implementation I have seen is http://verbnurbs.com/ which is amazing. Seriously, go over here https://git…

I had no idea that verbnurbs existed. It's one reason for writing, to get wind of other projects I didn't find in my google searches. Thanks!

This characterizes the filter bubble I can get into here, and few other venues, because they are poorly- or entirely un-moderated.

Re: Area programmer laments designers don’t use the same tools he does

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Github has become the de-facto place to put code" Maybe in some districts of SF and SV, but apart from that, NO I love Github and I think that it is way better than most of "industry standarts" but amazingly, some people still use self hosted solutions, because they need it.

full quote: "Github has become the de-facto place to put code that you want others to work with". Maybe I should clarify: "others" == "people who don't know or directly work with you" Self-hosted solutions do not make collaboration simpler (in an OSS context), which is the reasonable, non-zealous claim made by the article.

For the strict issue of sharing code with others (open to everybody), sure, Github is the best solution

But this is not what the article was talking about, it was talking about collaboration with other file formats, so jumping to say Github is good (on what we already know it's good and does not correspond to the discussion) is a stretch

Re: Area programmer laments designers don’t use the same tools he does

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Robust open-source CAD software would clearly fill a niche. The problem however, is not so much CAD as the schemas for the data that at gets attached to the models...IGES has been around for many decades, but what one engineer needs for FEA is not what the machinist needs for making the die or the Architect for making pretty pictures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavefront_.obj_file open source data formats are more important than programs initially, the above is for 3d models. "— namely, the position of each vertex, the UV position of each texture coordinate vertex, vertex normals, and the faces that make each polygon defined as a list of vertices, and texture vertices. " I'm sure there's one for the edge based models too. I can see an UrStandar…

The defacto standards for geometric data are driven by the dominate commercial software packages, e.g. ESRI's formats for geospatial information or AutoDesk's DXF for Orthogonal data [ and here I am lumping CAD and GIS under the scope of any universal standard ].

The issue with creating a standard is that to a first approximation every CAD or GIS program creates and operates on a unique set of meta-data...this is what gives each piece of software it's distinguishing features [ sure there are possible algorithmic efficiencies, but these are not an issue that a data interchange standard ought to treat as a primary concern ].

The wonderful thing about standards for 3d data is that there are so many to choose from. [1] There have been massive projects to create standards, and many of them have completed their work, only to see time march on. In AEC, the National Cad Standard was created in the 1980's [2]. It still locks the 3d description of designs to their 2d representation as drawings. The Army Corps of Engineers implements NCS. Their document is 450 pages [3]. To be comprehensible by humans, it is based on the idea:

     CAD levels or layers are analogous to
     overlays in manual drafting systems
     and serve to separate graphic elements 
     (lines, shapes, and text) according
     to the design discipline they represent.
Why, because unlike a computer program, the artifact it describes cannot be assumed to be directly manifested in meat-space without human involvement...e.g. buildings require construction crews and machine parts require someone pour raw material into the hopper and put finished goods on a truck, transport them, unload and install them for their next use...a design for a kitchen renovation doesn't compile into a new cabinet configuration.

So the fundamental issue for developing creating a useful 3d data model is not a document, but a way of creating the data model that is attractive to people who create 3d data models. The prototype is JavaScript not ADA.

[1] With perhaps disputed apologies to Grace Hopper. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper#Disputed

[2] http://www.nationalcadstandard.org/ncs6/about.php

[3] http://www.saj.usace.army.mil/Portals/44/docs/Engineering/AE...

Re: Area programmer laments designers don’t use the same tools he does

#48
post #10

> They are also not on github, which makes collaboration that much harder. This is now vim-emacs level zealotry. There are workflows which gasp do not mesh well with github. github issues/PRs have almost no metadata and absolutely none that the issue submitter can set.

zealotry? It's one comment in an article dealing almost entirely with other issues. Github has become the de-facto place to put code that you want others to work with, and it is a platform built to surface such projects and make them accessible in a consistent way. It's not the only such tool, but it is really familiar to a lot of people, and that makes collaboration slightly easier for those who are familiar with it…

>"Github has become the de-facto place to put code that you want others to work with,"

I think maybe you meant to use a more general term like "source control" here. Because that's so wrong to say github is de-facto for collaboration. There are proprietary projects with their own source control everywhere and "not using github" is no concern for any of them. Source control came around long before source control front-ends, surprisingly. And, again, probably surprisingly, not everyone needs a front-end to actually work.

Re: Area programmer laments designers don’t use the same tools he does

#50

One of the more interesting things about 3D printing is that it is igniting this sort of issue. A long time ago (like 1991) I was a working for Sun and representing them at the "CAD Framework Initiative" efforts or CFI. The express goal of this was to create a set of interchange formats for CAD tools so that you could move things from one system to another, you could store and diff changes, and even if your vendor we…

Plenty of money and effort was going into STEP [1] in the same timeframe, it is still in use for designing anything that flies. I'm the editor of one of the parts of it and we are seeing increasing interest from other industry sectors.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_10303

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